US Markets: Real-time Trading

[pegasus5]

Here's a Daily Wave Structure for ES...

[d-day]

D Day, there is currently a TS3 short on both 2 & 3 min ER2, I show pos diver on both time frames and passed. What do you show and are you in it?

Hi there Lumberwaggler,

I did not get a TS3 sell on the 3 minute ER2 - I guess a difference in data again. Even so, there was a DP there, but I did not short the ER2 as I had no divergence on any of the indicators I monitor. As I have said before, requiring divergence will not immunize you from trading losses, and at times it will keep you from taking a trade that would otherwise have been profitable. I am fine with the the trade-offs involved. But that is me, and each of us has to be responsible for our own decisions.

That being said, I did short the ES a few times while I was still long the ER2 from early this morning because there were bearish momentum divergences forming on the ES. Alas, the market had other ideas and busted those divergences as the market slugged higher. So I bailed at breakeven on one trade and took a small -.38R loss on the other. Again, trading off divergences will not immunize you from taking losses.

My next trade was to go long, of all things, the ES, at the DP highlighted in a previous post by Pegasus (in his excellent discussion of how he uses tick charts). Why the ES? Like yesterday, I was on the line with my buddy j and he trades the ES mostly and so that happened to be the chart I was looking at when that DP hit.

You could also have taken the trade on the ER2 - there was a wheelbarrow load of divergence on the ER2 at that time, and if you do a simple external fib extension of the first swing of the day on the ER2 3 minute chart, you will find that the ER2 had traded to and found support at the 1.618 extension of that swing. How do you do this? Take your fib extension tool, and click your first anchor at the high at 9:42 EST and then drag the second anchor to the low of the 10:27 AM EST bar and that's it! You will see that the 1.618 external extension of that swing is 758.08 and the actual low struck by the ER2 is 757.90. By external fib extension, I mean that it is 1.618 x the range of the measured swing. I've attached a chart for you to look at.

Thank you,

d-day


PS If you are going to insist on looking at both the 2 minute and the 3 minute charts you will likely end in frustration and failure. Pegasus is a pro, and I guarantee you that he did not start daytrading using tick charts. jjc is a pro, and he trades almost exclusively off the 5 minute chart. Learn to trade first, then get fancy later. You'll thank yourself for it down the road. Throw out the two minute chart for now. I myself often go down to the 1 minute chart for the same reason that Pegasus likes his tick charts - it provides more bang for the buck with respect to position sizing. But if I see my set-up forming on the 3 minute, I do not care what the indicators are doing on the one minute. I don't even look at them. Smaller time frames should be used for pin pointing entries and that is it. In my ever so humble opinion.:cool:

[d-day]

Hi Folks,

I wanted to share with all one of the main reasons why I like to use tick charts for entries. Now, to make one thing perfectly clear...I Do Not "tick trade". I utilize tick charts often because they will offer a better levered entry for the same level of risk from a 3 minute chart setup. The end result will always be greater R-value. Good Trading Everyone,

David

A most excellent, excellent post, my friend. :D

[d-day]

4651D Day, there is currently a TS3 short on both 2 & 3 min ER2, I show pos diver on both time frames and passed. What do you show and are you in it?

This will show two potential trade areas - the first is the area of the TS3 you mention. I did not get that signal, but even if I had, I would not have taken the trade. It would have been a nice winner.

The second is a potential DP long, but as you can see, at the DP area, even with the blue reversal bar, we had momentum as manifested by the 5,3,3 stochastic confirming the move lower. Therefore, no trade.

The third is what I still consider to be a DP trade. A DP is simply a price area where there is a significant fib support/resistance level where the market may be expected to pause in order to decide if it will continue from whence it came or offer a counter-trend trade opportunity. So, even though price declined through the DP, there was still an additional fib support below (see my above post discussing external fib extensions). Clear divergence at a potential fib support = go long and be strong.

[jjc]

Dave Day and Pegasus5,

Youse market commentary is downright prescient.

Good stuff...we are all ears ! ! !

j

[TreeShaker]

Dave Day and Pegasus5,

Youse market commentary is downright prescient.

Good stuff...we are all ears ! ! !

j

I second that!:D

[TreeShaker]

D Day,

I did as you said for the fib extention and the 61.8% line came out at the DP you were talking about. Is that the same as 1.618 that you said?

[AndyvB]

To everyone who posts here..thanks for enlightening us all with your trading ideas and the trades themselves...I learn from them too! I think many who read these posts need to understand we are all different and all trade differently, we all need to find "rules" that we feel comfortable trading with..Not everyone trades exactly the same, good thing we don't as then we would not have any markets for trading....
Thanks Andy

[d-day]

D Day,

I did as you said for the fib extention and the 61.8% line came out at the DP you were talking about. Is that the same as 1.618 that you said?

Yes. Since you are doing an external extension of a swing, you are in effect simply adding 61.8% of the length of that swing to itself. In this case the high was 765.2 and the low was 760.8. So 765.2-760.8=4.4 points.

(4.4*1.618)=[4.4+(4.4*.618)] =7.1192

so subtract 7.1192 from 765.2 = 765.2-7.1192=758.08

Of course the fib extension tool does this for you, but it is always good to know the math behind what you are betting on.

Basically, if price does not reverse at the first DP, which is 127% of the range from swing high to swing low (Steve's maths are a bit more complex than that but it is generally a zone around the 1.27% extension), then the next place to look for a reversal will be in a price zone around 161.8% of that swing.

Often times you will get what j refers to as a confluence of fib levels. For example, not only was this afternoon's low at the 1.618 extension of this morning's opening swing, but that reversal area inluded the 61.8% (758.53)retrace of the entire move from yesterday afternoon's 15:57 EST low to today's HOD (high of the day). Add to that that price was within the influence of 760. 759.6 was the LOD of 11/16, and if you throw a 30 minute chart of the ER2 up and then strike a horizontal line at 760 (759.6) and scroll back you will see that price ranges up and down, to and fro, but it has always seemed to gravitate back to that level. Then, if you dig up some of the freebie market profile data available on the web, you will see that 758.2 is a fairly significant high volume price area. The you see clear and present momentum divergence. Then you take the only trade you need to take for the day.

[tar001]

Long the TS3 then short at the price target(I used that as a DP when I saw it having trouble getting through it) I then covered at the DP(green bar) and waited for a long setup(gut) went long at the first green arrow and got stopped out, went long at the R/R based on the 5 minute chart and divergence. I sold at EOD based on the 5 minute DP

[tar001]

It wouldn't let me post 2 3 minute charts

[tar001]

That was a bit generous hahah I actually covered at the buy arrow but when I tried to repost it I put on the wrong R/R
still a great day(with very few trades)


It wouldn't let me post 2 3 minute charts

[jjc]

Yes. Since you are doing an external extension of a swing, you are in effect simply adding 61.8% of the length of that swing to itself. In this case the high was 765.2 and the low was 760.8. So 765.2-760.8=4.4 points.

(4.4*1.618)=[4.4+(4.4*.618)] =7.1192

so subtract 7.1192 from 765.2 = 765.2-7.1192=758.08

Of course the fib extension tool does this for you, but it is always good to know the math behind what you are betting on.

Basically, if price does not reverse at the first DP, which is 127% of the range from swing high to swing low (Steve's maths are a bit more complex than that but it is generally a zone around the 1.27% extension), then the next place to look for a reversal will be in a price zone around 161.8% of that swing.

Often times you will get what j refers to as a confluence of fib levels. For example, not only was this afternoon's low at the 1.618 extension of this morning's opening swing, but that reversal area inluded the 61.8% (758.53)retrace of the entire move from yesterday afternoon's 15:57 EST low to today's HOD (high of the day). Add to that that price was within the influence of 760. 759.6 was the LOD of 11/16, and if you throw a 30 minute chart of the ER2 up and then strike a horizontal line at 760 (759.6) and scroll back you will see that price ranges up and down, to and fro, but it has always seemed to gravitate back to that level. Then, if you dig up some of the freebie market profile data available on the web, you will see that 758.2 is a fairly significant high volume price area. The you see clear and present momentum divergence. Then you take the only trade you need to take for the day.


And, if you think Fibonacci is weird try this on for size.

First, record the 1st hour of trading as noted in the first chart...Initial Balance

Then as the day develops see if the price tries to trade back to that Initial Balance (1st hour of trading) as in the second chart.

Heck, if a trader were savvy enough he/she could of then been waiting for a sell signal when price moved away from the IB, i.e plenty of DP's and divergence up there at HOD.

j

[tombtrader]

Hi jjc,

which efs are you using for the MP? There are a number in the efs data base but the one you are using seems cleaner and stronger.

TIA

TB

[Steve Griffiths]

Hi Guys

I agree, I like to keep things simple, here on the 3min YM is a great example, two automatic trades and two nice profits.

All nice and straightforward, no need to loads of unnecessary indicators or too many time frames.

As David says, in the early days (until you know what you are doing) it is far better to keep things simple....

Steve

[d-day]

I see a potential DP short on the 3 minute ER2 with a sell stop at 775.6 current price is 776.4

[jjc]

I see a potential DP short on the 3 minute ER2 with a sell stop at 775.6 current price is 776.4

And if those jobless claims buyers cover it should be a runner


j

[d-day]

I see a potential DP short on the 3 minute ER2 with a sell stop at 775.6 current price is 776.4

Well that was short lived - I got short at 775.6 and as I was setting a limit order to take profit on 1/3 my fat fingers and sluggish brain entered the order wrong and took me out completely at 774.70. I'm trying to get short again with a sell limit at 775.60 ...

Short again 775.60 - of course, maybe I should have stayed flat as the chart would look better to short with one more slight push higher.

[davidh]

Yes, the 15 min ADX on ER2 still looks bullish so I got out of my DP short. It'll probably plummet now!

[TreeShaker]

I see a potential DP short on the 3 minute ER2 with a sell stop at 775.6 current price is 776.4

I assume that you got into that DP. How did you decide that it wasn't just more market creep? Maybe some of that fib magic?

To find it before it showed up, did you click on the high around 1012 hrs.?

[Eddo]

Well that was short lived - I got short at 775.6 and as I was setting a limit order to take profit on 1/3 my fat fingers and sluggish brain entered the order wrong and took me out completely at 774.70. I'm trying to get short again with a sell limit at 775.60 ...

Short again 775.60 - of course, maybe I should have stayed flat as the chart would look better to short with one more slight push higher.

David,

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the ER2?

Chris

BTW - I am currently short the YM off the 15 min DP - hanging on by my fingertips !

[davidh]

Hi Chris - the AB
Not sure why I called it that - I think its because its the IB code
Best Wishes
David

[Eddo]

Hi Chris - the AB
Not sure why I called it that - I think its because its the IB code
Best Wishes
David

Ah - OK I use the AB emini as my data setup for my UK spreadbet Russell - its about as close as I can get - many thanks

[d-day]

Short again 775.60 - of course, maybe I should have stayed flat as the chart would look better to short with one more slight push higher.


Well I was just stopped at 777.80 but we now have another DP, and the pattern is starting to look like an "ending diagonal" in wavespeak. And on this third push higher (first two pushes pivot highs at 10:09, 10:51 EST), all my momo indicators are making yet a lower high for a triple bearish divergence. So I may be wrong, but I will enter another sell stop soon - right now below 775.80 looks like the ticket, but a more aggressive entry may present itself soon, but with higher risk of course.


And of course, Miss Market can do anything she wants.

[d-day]

I assume that you got into that DP. How did you decide that it wasn't just more market creep? Maybe some of that fib magic?

To find it before it showed up, did you click on the high around 1012 hrs.?

I don't decide if something is "just more market creep." The market decides that ... I just take the trades - Momentum Divergence at a DP is a must take trade, whether I ultimately win or lose.

By the way, my DP was projected off the 10:09 bar. Your data apparently is calculated differently as the high print you say was the 10:12 bar. Therein probably lies the discrepancy between you momo indicators and everyone else's.

[jjc]

.


And of course, Miss Market can do anything she wants.

Call me shorty on the YM at 13513 with stop at 13540

j

[Eddo]

David,

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the ER2?

Chris

BTW - I am currently short the YM off the 15 min DP - hanging on by my fingertips !

My YM 15 min was stopped out but have just re-entered short the AB on the 5 min DP with great looking divergence -

[Eddo]

My YM 15 min was stopped out but have just re-entered short the AB on the 5 min DP with great looking divergence -

Well that didn't last long - stopped out again and down -2R on the day - little Miss Market isn't doing what my charts are telling her to do :mad:

[d-day]

Call me shorty on the YM at 13513 with stop at 13540

j

My YM 15 min was stopped out but have just re-entered short the AB on the 5 min DP with great looking divergence -

Good luck to you guys - I have a sell stop at 776.3 on the ER2

[d-day]

Good luck to you guys - I have a sell stop at 776.3 on the ER2

Here's how I'm looking at it

[Eddo]

Here's how I'm looking at it

Good luck with it - I got stopped by 1 tick so hope your still aboard

[d-day]

Good luck with it - I got stopped by 1 tick so hope your still aboard

I've not been stopped in yet - I have a sell stop at 776.3

[Eddo]

Good luck with it - I got stopped by 1 tick so hope your still aboard

Gone short for the third time again on the AB at the same divergence - now come on Miss M do the right thing please - lol

[Eddo]

I've not been stopped in yet - I have a sell stop at 776.3

I guess you will have been just brought in David so lets hope your joining me will do the trick

[d-day]

I guess you will have been just brought in David so lets hope your joining me will do the trick

776.3 has yet to be hit, Chris, so I am still flat.

[d-day]

776.3 has yet to be hit, Chris, so I am still flat.


I finally got another red reversal bar so I'm short at 778.1

We need below that trendline at 777.6 in a hurry though if this thing is going to work

[Eddo]

776.3 has yet to be hit, Chris, so I am still flat.

Lucky you - I can't read thought you were going in 776.8 - my entry order was just too close and took me in again so my day is looking less than impressive at the moment at -3R - lets see if I can recover ?

[d-day]

Lucky you - I can't read thought you were going in 776.8 - my entry order was just too close and took me in again so my day is looking less than impressive at the moment at -3R - lets see if I can recover ?


I took myself out at entry - we took a solid bounce off that trendline. Sure looks bearish as volume is shriveling up as price drifts higher. We need a break below that rising diagonal trendline with some volume. It can't just be us putting both arms into the bear suit. We need some sponsorship for this trade.

[jjc]

I took myself out at entry - we took a solid bounce off that trendline. Sure looks bearish as volume is shriveling up as price drifts higher. We need a break below that rising diagonal trendline with some volume. It can't just be us putting both arms into the bear suit. We need some sponsorship for this trade.


Bro, your Dday is still bullish :)

I bailed with pennies on my YM short

I might jump back in after the doldrums

good luck

j

[jay21]

Bro, your Dday is still bullish :)

I bailed with pennies on my YM short

I might jump back in after the doldrums

good luck

j

Hey J,

to me today is the most difficult day in a very long time, loads of short divergence setups trigger and the markets just drift higher. Also the TRIN looks neutral to bearish which makes me consider short trades which is not really the thing to do obviously...;)

What do you see that is bullish in the Dday?

Cheers,
Johan

[d-day]

Bro, your Dday is still bullish :)

I bailed with pennies on my YM short

I might jump back in after the doldrums

good luck

j

I know I was fighting the Dday a bit, but I had super nice divergence on the 5,3,3 (said divergence has since been busted so I have no open orders) and the STF.

I actually just looked at the 3 minute YM, and the Dday actually gave a buy at 11:03. However, if you ask me, the Dday looks to have at least conferred and "Ok to try a short" on the YM at 12:06 EST.

All in all, because of position sizing and my inadvertent profit taking on my first foray short, I am also ahead by just a few pennies - literally. After commish I am net 68 cents to the good lol. So IB made out like a bandit on me!

This is definitely a tough day for us counter-trend traders. I'm going to try to sit on my hands and wait for a more clear and compelling opportunity to come to me.

[TreeShaker]

Divergence is going to flat to rising, I think. Where's the reset button! Let's start over and go long. ;)

[jjc]

Hey J,

to me today is the most difficult day in a very long time, loads of short divergence setups trigger and the markets just drift higher. Also the TRIN looks neutral to bearish which makes me consider short trades which is not really the thing to do obviously...;)

What do you see that is bullish in the Dday?

Cheers,
Johan

Jay21

First let me say I'm not an educator but I'll make an attempt to explain something very simple.

It's all about supply and demand.

This is a line chart of the ER..it shows the close.

I drew lines at the top pivots and at the bottom pivots

Yes, price is getting very compressed but as you can see off the relative strength indicator (RSI) the bias is still long because it's still above it's zero line.

The green line is a 34ema to show you the trend of the ER and it's also long bias and in tact.

j

[jay21]

Jay21

First let me say I'm not an educator but I'll make an attempt to explain something very simple.

It's all about supply and demand.

This is a line chart of the ER..it shows the close.

I drew lines at the top pivots and at the bottom pivots

Yes, price is getting very compressed but as you can see off the relative strength indicator (RSI) the bias is still long because it's still above it's zero line.

The green line is a 34ema to show you the trend of the ER and it's also long bias and in tact.

j






Thanks for this J!!

Hopefully I understand what you mean when I say that I too see today as a bullish day trendwise - I discussed the TRIN earlier as the only indicator that I see neutral to bearish. But to trade pivot points like I do and I believe D-Day and yourself do there will be instances where one wants to go slightly against the trend. Today seems obiously not to be one of those days when one should be doing this - but the reason I still did was the weakness I see in the TRIN.

But I do see what you are saying - and I agree, I would rather trade long today, but I have not had any setups that are in line with my model sadly.

Good luck man!
Johan

[d-day]

Hey J,

to me today is the most difficult day in a very long time, loads of short divergence setups trigger and the markets just drift higher. Also the TRIN looks neutral to bearish which makes me consider short trades which is not really the thing to do obviously...;)

What do you see that is bullish in the Dday?

Cheers,
Johan

Johan, I'll try to annotate a chart that shows what j is referring to on the Dday, but basically on the YM, the Dday has been confiriming the move higher since the open, including providing a buy signal on the pullback to the 50 SMA on the 3 minute chart at 11:03/11:06 EST. In fact, the NQ was also given a buy signal at 11:06 EST. At 12:06 on the YM it did flash a brief slight divergence that would have been enought o perhaps try a short, maybe only 1/2 of a position. Why only half? Because on the YM, the Dday is still confirming the trend is bullish and heading higher.

Now, on the ER2, (see the pic that jjc posted) you will see that we had divergence on the black line. We also had divergence on the 5,3,3 stochastic, and on STF. When I was saying I was fighting the Dday, I mean that ideally we would notonly have had divergence on the black line, but we would also have had it on the green histogram bars with the green histogram bars falling below the dashed black line.

In the end, it is all about momentum, trend, and what I like to call "trend momentum". That last concept is my super secret sauce.

[G Fryer]

I got a TS3 Buy set-up on the 2 min NQ at 8:56, but sadly I didn't take it because of negative divergence. It turned downwards at the typical WPT C for a return of 3.57 R. I guess it looks good on paper.

Grrr.

Gillian

[jay21]

Johan, I'll try to annotate a chart that shows what j is referring to on the Dday, but basically on the YM, the Dday has been confiriming the move higher since the open, including providing a buy signal on the pullback to the 50 SMA on the 3 minute chart at 11:03/11:06 EST. In fact, the NQ was also given a buy signal at 11:06 EST. At 12:06 on the YM it did flash a brief slight divergence that would have been enought o perhaps try a short, maybe only 1/2 of a position. Why only half? Because on the YM, the Dday is still confirming the trend is bullish and heading higher.

Now, on the ER2, (see the pic that jjc posted) you will see that we had divergence on the black line. We also had divergence on the 5,3,3 stochastic, and on STF. When I was saying I was fighting the Dday, I mean that ideally we would notonly have had divergence on the black line, but we would also have had it on the green histogram bars with the green histogram bars falling below the dashed black line.

In the end, it is all about momentum, trend, and what I like to call "trend momentum". That last concept is my super secret sauce.

Hey David - very interesting - I sure would want to taste some of that sauce...:)

Seriously, myself I only consider taking DP-trades that set a new extreme price as per MTP rules. If we for instance look at the NQ 11.06 bar I see that this one never sets a new lower price extreme, and it is not even close to touching the DP-area. Are you actually saying that you would still consider this a valid long DP/divergence setup...?

And if so - don't you normally get very many setups...?

Thanks for sharing man!!
J.

[d-day]

I got a TS3 Buy set-up on the 2 min NQ at 8:56, but sadly I didn't take it because of negative divergence. It turned downwards at the typical WPT C for a return of 3.57 R. I guess it looks good on paper.

Grrr.

Gillian

Gillian, could you post a chart showing the TS3 and your negative divergence?

Thank you,
d-day

[d-day]

Hey David - very interesting - I sure would want to taste some of that sauce...:)

Seriously, myself I only consider taking DP-trades that set a new extreme price as per MTP rules. If we for instance look at the NQ 11.06 bar I see that this one never sets a new lower price extreme, and it is not even close to touching the DP-area. Are you actually saying that you would still consider this a valid long DP/divergence setup...?

And if so - don't you normally get very many setups...?

Thanks for sharing man!!
J.

On both the YM and the NQ we had a retest of support with positive divergence. Not a fib DP trade, no. And as for very many set-ups, I get 1-5 trades/day with an average of 2-3. I tend to have my best days the day have 2 trades and my worst days are when I have 5 trades. Support/Resistance, wheter fibo or structural, = Demand/Supply and not every retest of support/resistance is accompanied by momo divergence. If it were, trading would be as easy as a dead fish duct taped to the end of your gun.

[Steve Griffiths]

Hi Everybody,

Not sure why people say it has been a hard day, please see attached on the 3min AB, -1R, then +2R now long in a good TS4 trade - does not seam to bad as far as I can see....

Steve

[jay21]

On both the YM and the NQ we had a retest of support with positive divergence. Not a fib DP trade, no. And as for very many set-ups, I get 1-5 trades/day with an average of 2-3. I tend to have my best days the day have 2 trades and my worst days are when I have 5 trades. Support/Resistance, wheter fibo or structural, = Demand/Supply and not every retest of support/resistance is accompanied by momo divergence. If it were, trading would be as easy as a dead fish duct taped to the end of your gun.

Great stuff man - I think I get it - retest of a previous low and also approximately close of last day, and I do see the divergence.

I guess sometimes one gets a little too focused and forgets to look at old traditional TA ways of thinking - what you call structural resistance.

Thanks for bringing it to the table:)

Cheers,
Johan

[TreeShaker]

I'm in a ER2 3 min TS4 @ 1357hrs. Anyone in that? It has hit its target which was only 1.9R with a 1min entry, but its still good.:D It had pos diver!

[TreeShaker]

Here's the chart.

[d-day]

Hi Everybody,

Not sure why people say it has been a hard day, please see attached on the 3min AB, -1R, then +2R now long in a good TS4 trade - does not seam to bad as far as I can see....

Steve

It's always easier after the fact than in real time, though lol. I count -3R on 1 automatic and 2 manual DP's. The DP that would have gotten that 2R had no divergence on the 5,3,3 stochastics so I didn't take that one. The TS4 was a taker, however. And right now if you closed it out you would recover the losses from the DP's.

Still has been a difficult day in my book (and I doubt I'm alone), regardless of the ultimate impact on my P/L for the day.

[d-day]

I'm in a ER2 3 min TS4 @ 1357hrs. Anyone in that? It has hit its target which was only 1.9R with a 1min entry, but its still good.:D It had pos diver!

Congrats LimbBouncer, that there is one pretty trade. To tell you the truth, I took my attention off the charts for a few minutes and I missed the trade. I placed a limit order hoping we'd get a pullback but no such luck and it was off to the races without me.

Such is life (at least mine, anyways;) )

Congratulations and remember - Yes, let your profits run, but do not forget to protect your profits as well!

I'm PO'd at myself for missing the one real trade of the day and I'm done for the day 'cause when my horns get this twisted I tend to get reckless. I would always rather have played and lost than to miss a nice runner like that there TS4.

Good luck to all today.

[Steve Griffiths]

Hi Everybody,

The Long TS4 is doing very nicely now, at well over +4R as I type .... :)

So as far as the standard and automatic MTP set-ups are for today on the 3min AB, we have -1R, then +2R and now in another profit of +4R at the moment.... that is up +5R, which is not bad at all....

Keep it simple as always.....

Steve

[Steve Griffiths]

The YM is doing even better - at +7R now :)

Steve

[TreeShaker]

Here's the chart.

It's now pressed up tight against it's trend line but still going. This is the best trade I've had in weeks!:D

[d-day]

So as far as the standard and automatic MTP set-ups are for today on the 3min AB, we have -1R, then +2R and now in another profit of +4R at the moment.... that is up +5R, which is not bad at all....

Keep it simple as always.....

Steve

Are we no longer counting manual DP's with oscillator divergence among "standard MTP trades"?

[tar001]

I am in bothy the YM and the ER LONG still holding



Hi Everybody,

The Long TS4 is doing very nicely now, at well over +4R as I type .... :)

So as far as the standard and automatic MTP set-ups are for today on the 3min AB, we have -1R, then +2R and now in another profit of +4R at the moment.... that is up +5R, which is not bad at all....

Keep it simple as always.....

Steve

[Steve Griffiths]

Hi David,

As you say, it is a "manual" trade not an "automatic" one, so I should have said automatic MTP trades, sorry for the confusion......

Either way, this trade along with the earlier +2R profit would have certinally made up for a tricky day earlier, don't you agree ?

This TS4 long trade was a corker and jumped off the screen, especially with such clear divergence screaming, Buy me, Buy me ;)

Steve

PS, and I have not even mentioned the DP trend continuations which would add to the bottom line even more....

[Steve Griffiths]

YM at almost +10R profit (+9.5) now :) :)

I hope you all caught this one and rode all the way up ?

[Steve Griffiths]

+10R profit - it got there !!

Steve

[TreeShaker]

Congrats LimbBouncer, that there is one pretty trade. To tell you the truth, I took my attention off the charts for a few minutes and I missed the trade. I placed a limit order hoping we'd get a pullback but no such luck and it was off to the races without me.

Such is life (at least mine, anyways;) )

Congratulations and remember - Yes, let your profits run, but do not forget to protect your profits as well!

I'm PO'd at myself for missing the one real trade of the day and I'm done for the day 'cause when my horns get this twisted I tend to get reckless. I would always rather have played and lost than to miss a nice runner like that there TS4.

Good luck to all today.

Thanks for the caution David, I snugged up my stop when it hit the Trend Line and squeezed 4.3R out of it. :D Now I'm only down 0.8 for the week and there is light at the end of the tunnel.:)

[jjc]

Bro, your Dday is still bullish :)

I might jump back in after the doldrums

good luck

j

Dave too bad you missed your own trade

j

[d-day]

This TS4 long trade was a corker and jumped off the screen, especially with such clear divergence screaming, Buy me, Buy me ;)

Steve



No problem, just "keeping it real," as they say. That TS4 was a no brainer, and the only reason I didn't take it was that I had been briefly distracted long enough for the set-up to signal and then trigger without me.

My point was that we can count all the MTP trades - both manual and automatic, and we can still sit out trades that otherwise would have been profitable because the set-up did not follow one's rules (e.g. I had no stoch divergence on the second Auto DP short) and still things work out in the end. Of course, things would have worked out much better for me had I stuck to my screen and entered that TS4 lol.

In other words, you can take MTP with all of its good, bad, and uglies, and the good still wins out without having to mitigate the bad and the uglies.

MTP - I wouldn't trade without it.

[d-day]

Dave too bad you missed your own trade

j

I can't even tell you how bad I feel.

[Steve Griffiths]

In other words, you can take MTP with all of its good, bad, and uglies, and the good still wins out without having to mitigate the bad and the uglies.

MTP - I wouldn't trade without it.

Thanks David, that is good to hear.... There will always be tommorrow....

Steve

[TreeShaker]

I got a TS3 Buy set-up on the 2 min NQ at 8:56, but sadly I didn't take it because of negative divergence. It turned downwards at the typical WPT C for a return of 3.57 R. I guess it looks good on paper.

Grrr.

Gillian

What time frame are you on Gil? I didn't see anything like that. There was a wonderful TS4 @ 1056 PST that was good for 5.2R. If you trade the NQ I hope you were into that. Right at the WPT, blu STF, pos diver on stochastics.:) I was in TS4 on the ER2 at the time, which made me as giddy as school kid after my loses on Mon & Wed. :D

[G Fryer]

What time frame are you on Gil? I didn't see anything like that. There was a wonderful TS4 @ 1056 PST that was good for 5.2R. If you trade the NQ I hope you were into that. Right at the WPT, blu STF, pos diver on stochastics.:) I was in TS4 on the ER2 at the time, which made me as giddy as school kid after my loses on Mon & Wed. :D

Congrats on that. OK, lets see if I can upload a chart that you can see-- the black background makes it difficult in low resolution. I didn't take this trade because all the indicators were headed down, against the TS3. That's OK, I got some +Rs in later. Since my data source is tradestation, I seem don't always get the same signals as everyone else... I find more on the 2 min than anything else, then go down to 1 min to narrow the risk.

G

[pegasus5]

Here's a Daily Wave Structure for ES...

Well it didn't take long to achieve the Wave 1 or A price target....I would expect some consolidation now to digest these spectacular gains..

Good Trading,
David

[TreeShaker]

Congrats on that. OK, lets see if I can upload a chart that you can see-- the black background makes it difficult in low resolution. I didn't take this trade because all the indicators were headed down, against the TS3. That's OK, I got some +Rs in later. Since my data source is tradestation, I seem don't always get the same signals as everyone else... I find more on the 2 min than anything else, then go down to 1 min to narrow the risk.

G

Dummy me, I meant what time zone are you in? You're right, those blk charts are hard to see. These old eyes can't make anything out. I'm glad you got some Rs today.:)

[jjc]

I can't even tell you how bad I feel.

Yeah, we made too many wrong mistakes...yogi'ism

j

[Rob E]

Yeah, we made too many wrong mistakes...yogi'ism

j

Continuing the "Yogi'ism's"

That beauty ER TS4 yielded some pretty good cash...which is just as good as money! ;)

[G Fryer]

Dummy me, I meant what time zone are you in? You're right, those blk charts are hard to see. These old eyes can't make anything out. I'm glad you got some Rs today.:)


I'm Mountain time, but I think I quoted Eastern on my post... the market is open at 7:30 for me.

I don't like the black background of tradestation, but I'm too lazy to go and change all of the settings. New default settings won't automatically apply to existing charts, so it would take me a while to change every chart I have. For now, I'll live with it. TS also forgets settings regularly, so even if I took the time, I'm not sure they would 'stick.'

G

[tar001]

What made today difficult(at first) was that the 5 minutes were all giving DP sells with divergence. I got stopped out once and didn't take the other as I knew(gut) the market would probably rally on the housing plan. I was looking for longs after that nonsense hahaha
so its not as easy as it might have appeared

[Larry22]

Well it didn't take long to achieve the Wave 1 or A price target....I would expect some consolidation now to digest these spectacular gains..

Good Trading,
David


I agree with you, we have also reached a potential top in the NQ on the hourly charts.

The wave counts is giving me an A wave followed by 5 waves in the C forming a possible top, tomorrow should give us a confirmation.

See the charts

[Larry22]

We are also very close to a top on the ER2 60 min.

We have an ABC that could be completed, still I would have prefered to see 7 waves in the C leg.

Who knows we should have the answer very soon. :D

See the hourly charts.

[jjc]

I knew the market would probably rally on the housing plan. I was looking for longs after that

Kudos

You missed your calling, we were thinking 'Buy the rumor sell the news'

j

Don't believe what you're thinking...yogi'ism

[tar001]

To be honest my strength today(gut) is usually my biggest enemy in trading. I am VERY thick headed and I often get a feel for the markets and don't trust the trade setups that come along because they don't go along with my market thoughts hahah I guess to be a great trader we(none of us) should have had any preconceived notions as to what the market might or might not do. I guess I need to work on that(along with a million other things)
:confused:


Kudos

You missed your calling, we were thinking 'Buy the rumor sell the news'

j

Don't believe what you're thinking...yogi'ism

[d-day]

We are also very close to a top on the ER2 60 min.

We have an ABC that could be completed, still I would have prefered to see 7 waves in the C leg.

Who knows we should have the answer very soon. :D

See the hourly charts.


Great stuff, Larry. Thank you for sharing this with us.

[jjc]

Tar , speaking of preconceived notions :)

I'm 'thinking' a cycle day today on the ES, whereas, selling 6.5 points from the open or buying 6.5 points from open.

j

[d-day]

short ER2 787.1 - Opening DP trade

[d-day]

Tar , speaking of preconceived notions :)

I'm 'thinking' a cycle day today on the ES, whereas, selling 6.5 points from the open or buying 6.5 points from open.

j

So j, you're saying you would be lookng for buy sigs or sell sigs at a 6.5 point tail from the ES open of 1512.25?

[jjc]

So j, you're saying you would be lookng for buy sigs or sell sigs at a 6.5 point tail from the ES open of 1512.25?

Uhhuh


Say, your DdayVTF just doesnt lie, does it?

I see what convinced you to take that DP short at the open.

Nice job !

[d-day]

short ER2 787.1 - Opening DP trade

Long NQ - Manual DP long at 2123 on the 24 hour chart - I didn't mean to be trading the 24 hour, I just forgot to reset my time template so I am long the NQ. We'll see how this goes.

Limited out on the ER2 at the DP 782.3

[d-day]

Long NQ - Manual DP long at 2123 on the 24 hour chart - I didn't mean to be trading the 24 hour, I just forgot to reset my time template so I am long the NQ. We'll see how this goes.

Limited out on the ER2 at the DP 782.3

Here's a chart of the NQ day session - I am hoping that the little DP above the bull channel will be enough of a magnet to pull price through that downsloping trendline - especially as the lower parallel trendline is now well below my initial stop, as is a DP projected off the low of my entry bar. As you can see, on the day session only chart, this was hardly an ideal set-up, and not an MTP set up at all on the 3 minute time frame though it sure looked like one on the 24 hour chart:o .

[d-day]

I am hoping that the little DP above the bull channel will be enough of a magnet to pull price through that downsloping trendline ... this was hardly an ideal set-up, and not an MTP set up at all on the 3 minute time frame.


Well NQ has been trying to poke above that trendline but someone keeps smacking it back down everytime it does. Too nervewracking for me so I exited gracefully at 2125.50

[jjc]

So j, you're saying you would be lookng for buy sigs or sell sigs at a 6.5 point tail from the ES open of 1512.25?


ES now at my buy of 1505.75

which is 6.5 from the open

wish me luck :)

j

[d-day]

ES now at my buy of 1505.75

which is 6.5 from the open

wish me luck :)

j

Good luck :)

[d-day]

Good luck :)

I'm going with you but my fill was 1507.5

[jjc]

I'm going with you but my fill was 1507.5

GL but I'm scaling out of some with a lil 'walkaround' money

j

[d-day]

Well NQ has been trying to poke above that trendline but someone keeps smacking it back down everytime it does. Too nervewracking for me so I exited gracefully at 2125.50

Of course, patience is a virtue of which I am often in too short supply - NQ was dragged kicking and screaming to that DP, after all (and after I bailed early).

[TreeShaker]

D Day, there's a TS1 on the ER2 3min that refuses to give a blue buy bar. But, I can't decide if the oscillators are showing pos or neg diver because the price and the oscillators make a little arch from the previous low, so, if I draw a line from the previous low @ 0954hrs EST it's pos, but if I draw a line from the "a" @ 1033 hrs. EST it's neg. Which is right?:confused:

Sorry, wrong chart.

[TreeShaker]

Here is the right chart.

[jjc]

GL but I'm scaling out of some with a lil 'walkaround' money

j

Target for the remainder is 1510.00

j

[d-day]

D Day, there's a TS1 on the ER2 3min that refuses to give a blue buy bar.

I do not have that signal on my chart (more datafeed differences no doubt). But without any blue reversal bar in sight, I'd sit that one out. Look at all the overlapping bars - not the clear swings typical of a good set up. That being said, I'm long 1 little ES at 7.5 based on nothing more than j's Magical Math lol. And we are now breaking out to the upside, so maybe that magic is working after all.

When trading those TS's, I do try to stick to Steve's rules regarding reversal bars, and while I may bend then occasionally, I do so at my own risk. While you're still learning the software, Leafblower, I'd stick to the rules and insist on the proper reversal bar.

[jjc]

That being said, I'm long 1 little ES at 7.5 based on nothing more than j's Magical Math lol. And we are now breaking out to the upside, so maybe that magic is working after all.


Ka Ching at target 1510.00

Don't be so modest, I learned all trading stuff from you ! :)

j

[TreeShaker]

I do not have that signal on my chart (more datafeed differences no doubt). But without any blue reversal bar in sight, I'd sit that one out. Look at all the overlapping bars - not the clear swings typical of a good set up. That being said, I'm long 1 little ES at 7.5 based on nothing more than j's Magical Math lol. And we are now breaking out to the upside, so maybe that magic is working after all.

When trading those TS's, I do try to stick to Steve's rules regarding reversal bars, and while I may bend then occasionally, I do so at my own risk. While you're still learning the software, Leafblower, I'd stick to the rules and insist on the proper reversal bar.

I didn't take that trade because of no blue bar, but I see it's climbing quite nicely not having to tote me along. :rolleyes: But have I really wanted to know was about the diver I run into that situation all the time don't know how I'm suppose to interpret it. You being the diver king, I figured you're the one to ask.:)

[d-day]

Ka Ching at target 1510.00

I'm going to hold her a little longer and see if we don't get another push higher after a bit of a pullback here. We've had some pretty good momo into this rally, the NQ has broke to a new HOD, so maybe the ES will do likewise, and then we should get a nice DP short opportunity soon thereafter.

[jjc]

I didn't take that trade because of no blue bar, but I see it's climbing quite nicely not having to tote me along. :rolleyes: But have I really wanted to know was about the diver I run into that situation all the time don't know how I'm suppose to interpret it. You being the diver king, I figured you're the one to ask.:)

In pseudo-math:

Total flux change = (field change in X direction) + (field change in Y direction) + (field change in Z direction)

Altho in jjc - math;

that looks like positive divergence or in other words - continuation

j

[d-day]

I didn't take that trade because of no blue bar, but I see it's climbing quite nicely not having to tote me along. :rolleyes: But have I really wanted to know was about the diver I run into that situation all the time don't know how I'm suppose to interpret it. You being the diver king, I figured you're the one to ask.:)

On your chart, stochastics is confirming the move high on the intermediate pivots, but it is also seemingly confirming the move down on the minor pivots.

In e-signal, the stochastics is both confirming the move higher on the intermediate pivots (green line) and it is positively divergent on the minor pivots (blue line).

Go figure.

[d-day]

In pseudo-math:

Total flux change = (field change in X direction) + (field change in Y direction) + (field change in Z direction)

Altho in jjc - math;

that looks like positive divergence or in other words - continuation

j

Unfortunately, I think there is something wrong with LeafBlower's flux capacitor, though he may be able to get by with an Uranium P-238 Space Modulator.

[jjc]

Unfortunately, I think there is something wrong with LeafBlower's flux capacitor, though he may be able to get by with an Uranium P-238 Space Modulator.

I'm fixing to sell the YM and buy the ZB

j

[TreeShaker]

On your chart, stochastics is confirming the move high on the intermediate pivots, but it is also seemingly confirming the move down on the minor pivots.

In e-signal, the stochastics is both confirming the move higher on the intermediate pivots (green line) and it is positively divergent on the minor pivots (blue line).

Go figure.

Which would carry the higher weight, the intermediate or the minor. Minor is minor, but it also is the latest, that's why I ask.

This morning I feel like all my capacitors have blown out, but I haven't made any losing trades today, yet. Of course I haven't made any trades today. :rolleyes: I'm just watching the ER2 with one eye on the YM. Didn't get loaded up until 1000 hrs. EST so nothing has been tradable since, that I see.(saw?) Which looks like my 3 min. chart, see-saw.

[d-day]

I'm fixing to sell the YM and buy the ZB

j


I'm still long the ES with a stop at 9.75

For the STF traders here the NQ 3 minute is currently short with a manual DP with a 2132 entry - I did not take that trade myself.

[Steve Griffiths]

Hi Guys,

It is always going to be a tricky day on the day "after" such a huge profitable day like yesterday...

I would not be surprised to see the market chop sideways today and as such create some small losses. But as usual these will be small next to the massive profits from yesterday.

This is just the "cyclical nature" of trading.....

Steve

[tar001]

What about this?



I'm still long the ES with a stop at 9.75

For the STF traders here the NQ 3 minute is currently short with a manual DP with a 2132 entry - I did not take that trade myself.

[tar001]

NOPE!!!!!!!! thats where I get myself in trouble TOO many DP's with divergences.



What about this?

[jjc]

I'm still long the ES with a stop at 9.75

For the STF traders here the NQ 3 minute is currently short with a manual DP with a 2132 entry - I did not take that trade myself.


Hmm, did I say I was selling the YM and buying the ZB ? :)

Originally Posted by jjc
I'm fixing to sell the YM and buy the ZB

j

Flat on YM and ZB now

j

[tar001]

how about this one? or is my thick head too busy thinking we will bounce again?
:D


NOPE!!!!!!!! thats where I get myself in trouble TOO many DP's with divergences.

[tar001]

would this qualify as a double top? its very close:confused:

[Steve Griffiths]

Hi Tar001

This is the ONLY automatic MTP DP trade on the NQ at the moment

Steve

[tar001]

Using the auto DP's is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy, I need to complicate things to be happy
hahahah:D



Hi Tar001

This is the ONLY automatic MTP DP trade on the NQ at the moment

Steve

[tar001]

do you think it will reach that DP?


Hi Tar001

This is the ONLY automatic MTP DP trade on the NQ at the moment

Steve

[d-day]

Hi Tar001

This is the ONLY automatic MTP DP trade on the NQ at the moment

Steve

And here it is as a manual DP on the 3 minute NQ

[Steve Griffiths]

do you think it will reach that DP?

I don't "think", thinking is never good, all I know is that the ATRStop is currently at 0.7R profit, so it will either get stopped out for a small profit or continue lower, I think of nothing else...

KISS, is the best strategy....

I hope this helps ?

Steve

[tar001]

So when you are in a trade on the 5 minute you don't look at the 3 minute DP's to see where it might bounce? seems like I am thinking way too much on this stuff(really)
what about this? double bottom?



would this qualify as a double top? its very close:confused:

[jjc]

would this qualify as a double top? its very close:confused:

Tar001

Maybe over the weekend you could go back and review Steve's lesson on 'selling bars' and 'buying bars'...good stuff to know.


j

[d-day]

would this qualify as a double top? its very close:confused:


Sure, why not? But in my opinion the best double top/double bottom trades are those where the "double" at least matches the first high/low and preferably exceeds it slightly, aka "double top/bottom failure".

And as you can imagine, I'd like that higher high/lower low to occur on decreasing momentum.

[tar001]

Buying bars? so you're saying since I can't make it as a trader I should buy a bar instead? sounds like a GREAT idea
hahahaha
:D



Tar001

Maybe over the weekend you could go back and review Steve's lesson on 'selling bars' and 'buying bars'...good stuff to know.


j

[d-day]

So when you are in a trade on the 5 minute you don't look at the 3 minute DP's to see where it might bounce? seems like I am thinking way too much on this stuff(really)
what about this? double bottom?

Absolutely! If I'm in a trade on the 5 minute chart then I am constantly checking DP and stochastic measurements on the 1 minute, 2 minute, 3 minute and 7 minute charts while at the same time monitoring all signals that are occuring on the 89 tick, 233 tick, and 610 tick charts so long as those signals are not in conflict with the signals on the 1000v and 2100v charts. Unless, of course, its Tuesday. Then I do all of the above but from the left hand side.

How else am I supposed to trade? Just watch one time frame? Perhaps the one that got me into the trade? But then what would I do with the other 47 monitors I've surrounded myself with? Hmmmm?:rolleyes:








d-day
"One Screen, One Market, One Chart";)

[jjc]

Buying bars? so you're saying since I can't make it as a trader I should buy a bar instead? sounds like a GREAT idea
hahahaha
:D

See, you are pretty smart after all, don't care what they say about you.

That's exactly what I meant lol


j

[tar001]

I'm not as dumb as I look you're saying? haha
selling bars?(red arrow)



See, you are pretty smart after all, don't care what they say about you.

That's exactly what I meant lol


j

[tar001]

ONLY 47 monitors?
:D


Absolutely! If I'm in a trade on the 5 minute chart then I am constantly checking DP and stochastic measurements on the 1 minute, 2 minute, 3 minute and 7 minute charts while at the same time monitoring all signals that are occuring on the 89 tick, 233 tick, and 610 tick charts so long as those signals are not in conflict with the signals on the 1000v and 2100v charts. Unless, of course, its Tuesday. Then I do all of the above but from the left hand side.

How else am I supposed to trade? Just watch one time frame? Perhaps the one that got me into the trade? But then what would I do with the other 47 monitors I've surrounded myself with? Hmmmm?:rolleyes:








d-day
"One Screen, One Market, One Chart";)

[jjc]

I'm not as dumb as I look you're saying? haha
selling bars?(red arrow)

Nah

Maybe Steve will come on and explain it again to us...he's the educator not me

j

[tar001]

Looks like the thick head wins(I knew it would bounce)



how about this one? or is my thick head too busy thinking we will bounce again?
:D

[davidh]

Steve - a question about these NQ DP's
What do you think about defining a DP when the high / low being used to define the DP is from the previous day, and overnight activity is not being taken into account? You clearly believe them to be valid, and maybe they are due to the number of traders looking at day session charts, but I can't help feeling uneasy when anything might have been happening to price overnight...
Thanks,
David

[tar001]

Not to insinuate I was in that trade, I passed due to the 5 minute
and Steve being short. I am not going to bet against him thats for sure!
so Steve it looks like you owe me about 1300$
hahahaha



Looks like the thick head wins(I knew it would bounce)

[Steve Griffiths]

Not to insinuate I was in that trade, I passed due to the 5 minute
and Steve being short. I am not going to bet against him thats for sure!
so Steve it looks like you owe me about 1300$
hahahaha

Hi Tar001

Looks like you should have had the confidence to go with your own analysis there ;)

This is what trading is all about, have your own plan and stick to it.... Just because I post some analysis does not mean the market will move that way - I wish I had that kind of power :)

Steve

[Steve Griffiths]

As I suspected earlier, looks today is unfolding as a very choppy and sideways day - always hard to trade.....

Steve

[tar001]

Great news!! now you only owe me 400$ hahahah(Im still short though so you might not owe me anything after)


As I suspected earlier, looks today is unfolding as a very choppy and sideways day - always hard to trade.....

Steve

[TreeShaker]

It looks like the market gave some last hrs. money away. Seems all the mini's had a DP or TSx around 1510 hrs. EST with neg. diver. My only trade today. Hope everyone got in on these, unless you were into something better. I don't look at much. I'm KISS ing. Mine was good for 2.3R :D Did you ever make it back to the ER@ David?

[Rob E]

Great news!!

Lemme guess...you saved a bunch O' $$$ by switching to GEICO? ;) :D

[d-day]

It looks like the market gave some last hrs. money away. Seems all the mini's had a DP or TSx around 1510 hrs. EST with neg. diver. My only trade today. Hope everyone got in on these, unless you were into something better. I don't look at much. I'm KISS ing. Mine was good for 2.3R :D Did you ever make it back to the ER@ David?

Hey there BranchBurner,

Sorry for the long delay in answering you back. In the morning session I tend to be more inclined to check in here regularly, but I do best in the afternoon, and I'm on the line with jjc most afternoons and its all I can do to keep up with him and pay attention to my own trades. I was all ER2 this afternoon - three classic set-ups: A DP long with a head and shoulders Stochastic plus a buying tail that held long until the DP short with stoch divergence that you posted which was then reversed to long for a nice DP long into the close. The DP's wer classic, classic manual DP's - picture perfect price pattern, picture perfect momentum divergence. The second buy was also a "double bottom" with the noon hour low.

After what I consider to have been a rough rough morning the afternoon turned out well. The only mistake I made this afternoon was that on the short DP I added to my position and then watched the whole thing get inadvertently stopped out, so I had to go back in and as a result my commish costs on the trade are higher than they otherwise would have been and I gave up a few ticks of profit - it happens.

Congratulations on that trade. You must finally have whacked your way back to black.

[jjc]

[QUOTE=David Day;12180] A DP long with a head and shoulders Stochastic plus a buying tail that held long until the DP short with stoch divergence QUOTE]

Dave

Will you please do us MTP owners a favor and post the rules for that trade?

I know the first rule is you must have a proprietary MTP DP

Would you go over the other rules for us?

That looks like an extremely high odds trade.

j

[rrs]

Many of the MTP users may already know about and trade successfully "the last hour" , big moves in US stock indices. The following article in the London Financial Times describes this pattern with some solid numbers and offers an explanation for these moves in the US stock indices.

What is interesting to me is how MTP captures these "sudden last hour moves" that are supposed to be, according to the Financial Times, due to massive selling of large volumes of shares triggered by the computers (so called hedge fund black boxes) running the quantitative models of the Wall Street firms and hedge funds. It is a tribute to the efficiency and robustness of MTP as a trading tool that an individual MTP user is able to profit from these moves while managing the risk and position size in real time.

Here is the link to the full article (subscription may be required):

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/553fea68-a68e-11dc-b1f5-0000779fd2ac.html

Rama.

[TreeShaker]

Anybody doing anything out there? I took a TS2 short on the ER2 1min @ 1158 EST, down 0.8R.:(

[Rob E]

Anybody doing anything out there? I took a TS2 short on the ER2 1min @ 1158 EST, down 0.8R.:(


Sorry 2 hear about your woes TS, but I'm not fairing a whole lot better @ least not yet...the day's still young though!;)

I took this nice little 2 min. TS4 sell setup on the NQ which is just basically wallowing in the mud right now! If it were a pig...it would be a very happy camper! :D But sadly (so far) it's not doing a very good job of bringing home the bacon.

[davidh]

Rob,
The TS4 setups need to be checked to see if the setup on the chart is a correction to a downtrend for shorts or uptrend for longs, so doesn't look like this was valid...
Doesn't mean it won't work though!;)
Best Wishes
David

[Steve Griffiths]

Hi David,

I agree, RobE, that was NOT a valid TS4 sell, as David explains it was not "correcting" a prior move.

TreeShaker, be very careful of 1min set-ups, they are too short a time frame unless you are a very very good trader.......

Seriously Guys, be careful, any only consider the best MTP set-ups, trying to push the boundaries too far will only end in losses

Steve

[TreeShaker]

Sorry 2 hear about your woes TS, but I'm not fairing a whole lot better @ least not yet...the day's still young though!;)

I took this nice little 2 min. TS4 sell setup on the NQ which is just basically wallowing in the mud right now! If it were a pig...it would be a very happy camper! :D But sadly (so far) it's not doing a very good job of bringing home the bacon.

It looks like that trade has been going nowhere for 2 hrs. Are you still in it? Looks like it rose just above the ATR about 45 min.s ago.

[jay21]

Sorry 2 hear about your woes TS, but I'm not fairing a whole lot better @ least not yet...the day's still young though!;)

I took this nice little 2 min. TS4 sell setup on the NQ which is just basically wallowing in the mud right now! If it were a pig...it would be a very happy camper! :D But sadly (so far) it's not doing a very good job of bringing home the bacon.

Hey Rob,

hope all is good with you - been a while since you taught me something new now :) so I'd thought I go ahead with a little question.

I was just a tad curious to see you shorting today, to me the day is looking strong mostly - STF, TRIN, AD/DE all point clearly up - the only thing is that the VIX is a tad slow maybe. Also I believe the ADR has not been reached - has it?

So can I ask you how you reasoned to go short there?

Cheers man!!

[rrs]

An ER2 3 min DP Sell trade with clear divergence in progress.

[rrs]

An ER2 3 min DP Sell trade with clear divergence in progress.

Just hit the target.

[Biggo]

Just hit the target.

Hi Rama

Have you closed out trde?
I am running it with ATR stop STF looks strong ;)

Phil

[rrs]

Hi Rama

Have you closed out trde?
I am running it with ATR stop STF looks strong ;)

Phil

Hi Phil,

I have just closed out the trade. The rule I follow in managing counter trend trades, like this DP trade, dictates that I exit the trade when the following two criteria are met:

1) the trade reaches the opposing DP level

2) measured momentum (in this case downward momentum) driving the trade is declining.

I follow this very conservative strategy and accept the fact that I may leave some money on the table.

With best wishes,

Rama.

[Biggo]

Hi Phil,

I have just closed out the trade. The rule I follow in managing counter trend trades, like this DP trade, dictates that I exit the trade when the following two criteria are met:

1) the trade reaches the opposing DP level

2) measured momentum (in this case downward momentum) driving the trade is declining.

I follow this very conservative strategy and accept the fact that I may leave some money on the table.

With best wishes,

Rama.


Hi Rama

Thanks for sharing your trading rules.
I am thinking we may be in for some downside on the ER2 as we are at a typ wave 4 & a minimum wpt for a minor abc on the daily.
Time will tell us I guess.:)
I have moved my stop to the DP & wait to see if the ATR catches up

Cheers

Phil

[Rob E]

Hey Rob,

hope all is good with you - been a while since you taught me something new now :) so I'd thought I go ahead with a little question.

I was just a tad curious to see you shorting today, to me the day is looking strong mostly - STF, TRIN, AD/DE all point clearly up - the only thing is that the VIX is a tad slow maybe. Also I believe the ADR has not been reached - has it?

So can I ask you how you reasoned to go short there?

Cheers man!!

Hey Johan:

Yes, TRIN has been bullish all day and the VIX has for the most part been neutral, so the internals overall have been mixed to leaning towards the bullish side. So with that in mind, my initial biases were to look toward the long side today first. But needless to say there wasn't much being offered on the buy side when that TS4 showed up and when it did, the internals weren't so overly bullish as to keep me from taking a shot @ the sell side. Had the VIX been confirming the TRIN and reading nicely in the green too...then I probably would've passed on the setup and not try to fade that underlying strength.

So when that TS4 completed it was a nice, symmetrical pattern completing @ the TYP, so to me it was worth a shot considering that patterns which complete @ the TYP. tend to have a higher probability of panning out.

And if it failed to pan out it was a simple one shot deal anyways considering that it completed outside of the TYP so if it continued beyond that, then the pattern just goes bye, bye as it would no longer be a valid setup anyways.

The ones that I have a real personal struggle with are the patterns that complete at the MIN and then just keep edging up from there to finally reach the TYP. By the time it reaches the TYP you're now down -2 to -3R on the very same setup, which to me completely defeats the whole purpose of limiting losses to no more than -1R per setup. Those are the setups that have to pass through some fairly stringent filtering from me B4 I jump in... so as to try and avoid taking those dreaded multiple R losses on the same setup.

But to me most anything that completes at or exceeding the TYP and still remains a valid setup by completing and closing back within the TYP. as per the guidelines are fair game. As those are pretty much automatically limiting your losses to no more than the standard 1R which is the whole idea behind the game of position sizing and risk management.

As I type, my target was just reached so the bacon is finally frying in the pan!!!:)

Hope this gives you some insight as to how and what I was thinking for that setup. Again, had ALL the internals been in agreement and harmony I probably would've passed, but since they were mixed, I figured that setup was worth a shot. Not only that but the NQ had also been the overall weaker of the 3 today too...the ER2 and the YM were running a bit stronger than the NQ today... so I figured if any of the 3 were more likely to yield any kind of a corrective pullback, odds were that it would've been the NQ vs. the other 2.

Cheers!

Rob!!!

p.s., recall if you will Johan from our previous discussions the basic rules/guidelines that I follow when using the internals:

1. if the internals are all in harmony and pointing in the same direction, look for setups that are going with that flow and limit or eliminate all together any setups that are fading that underlying flow.

2. if the internals are mixed (as they are today) and not in harmony...then you're free to take trades in either direction depending on the quality of the setups.

[jay21]

Hey Johan:

Yes, TRIN has been bullish all day and the VIX has for the most part been neutral, so the internals overall have been mixed to leaning towards the bullish side. So with that in mind, my initial biases were to look toward the long side today first. But needless to say there wasn't much being offered on the buy side when that TS4 showed up and when it did, the internals weren't so overly bullish as to keep me from taking a shot @ the sell side. Had the VIX been confirming the TRIN and reading nicely in the green too...then I probably would've passed on the setup.

So when that TS4 completed it was a nice, symmetrical pattern completing @ the TYP, so to me it was worth a shot considering that patterns which complete @ the TYP. tend to have a higher probability of panning out.

And if it failed to pan out it was a simple one shot deal anyways considering that it completed outside of the TYP so if it continued beyond that, then the pattern just goes bye, bye as it would no longer be a valid setup anyways.

The ones that I have a real personal struggle with are the patterns that complete at the MIN and then just keep edging up from there to finally reach the TYP. By the time it reaches the TYP you're now down -2 to -3R on the very same setup, which to me completely defeats the whole purpose of limiting losses to no more than -1R per setup. Those are the setups that have to pass through some fairly stringent filtering from me B4 I jump in... so as to try and avoid taking those dreaded multiple R losses on the same setup.

But to me most anything that completes at or exceeding the TYP and still remains a valid setup by completing and closing back within the TYP. as per the guidelines are fair game. As those are pretty much automatically limiting your losses to no more than the standard 1R which is the whole idea behind the game of position sizing and risk management.

As I type, my target was just reached so the bacon is finally frying in the pan!!!:)

Hope this gives you some insight as to how and what I was thinking for that setup. Again, had ALL the internals been in agreement and harmony I probably would've passed, but since they were mixed, I figured that setup was worth a shot. Not only that but the NQ had also been the overall weaker of the 3 today too...the ER2 and the YM were running a bit stronger than the NQ today... so I figured if any of the 3 were more likely to yield any kind of a corrective pullback, odds were that it would've been the NQ vs. the other 2.

Cheers!

Rob!!!


Great Rob - thanks a lot! I just wanted to make sure that the master is still true to his words :) , but I do see that the strength in the VIX makes it valid to look for shorts on a day like today.

Best of continued trading success to ya!
Johan

[rrs]

Hi Rama

Thanks for sharing your trading rules.
I am thinking we may be in for some downside on the ER2 as we are at a typ wave 4 & a minimum wpt for a minor abc on the daily.
Time will tell us I guess.:)
I have moved my stop to the DP & wait to see if the ATR catches up

Cheers

Phil

Hi Phil,

You are welcome. I am also watching the same minor ABC on the daily chart of ER2. Let us see what happens.

With best wishes,

Rama.

[Eddo]

Hi Phil,

You are welcome. I am also watching the same minor ABC on the daily chart of ER2. Let us see what happens.

With best wishes,

Rama.

Once again everyone, please forgive my ignorance but what is the difference in the AB (russ emini) and the ER2 which I have been told is also the Russ emini

Many thanks - and once again apologies for this very basic question

Chris

[rrs]

Once again everyone, please forgive my ignorance but what is the difference in the AB (russ emini) and the ER2 which I have been told is also the Russ emini

Many thanks - and once again apologies for this very basic question

Chris

Hi Chris,

AB is the symbol for the Emini Russell 2000 futures contract used by eSignal.

TradeStation uses the symbol ER2 for the same emini Russell 2000 contract.

Same contract but different symbols used by different companies.

Sincerely,

Rama.

[Eddo]

Hi Chris,

AB is the symbol for the Emini Russell 2000 futures contract used by eSignal.

TradeStation uses the symbol ER2 for the same emini Russell 2000 contract.

Same contract but different symbols used by different companies.

Sincerely,

Rama.

Rama

Thank you very much - I just knew there would be a simple ansa !! but I hated the idea that I was behind the curve on something

Once again very many thanks

Chris

[Steve Griffiths]

Hi Everybody

As I keep on saying - KISS.

Having the patience and discipline to wait for the ideal set-ups pays off - see below a nice +5R Profit on the perfect DP sell that nailed the high of the day on the 5min AB (or ER2).

No messing around with 1min charts or invalid set-ups, just Keep It Simple !

[Rob E]

No messing around with 1min charts or invalid set-ups, just Keep It Simple !

With all due respect...just as "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder,"...valid or invalid is in the eye of the individual trader! What may be a valid setup to one...could be an invalid setup to another and vice versa. Trading does not nor never will fit nice and neatly into a cookie cutter mold...that's why it's called..."DISCRETIONARY!"

As long as one has their own set of rules/guidelines and filter criteria and adheres to them + employs sound position sizing/risk management...then it's just a simple matter of allowing the #'s/probabilites/expectancy to take their due course and let everything to come out in the wash!

This is simply intended as something to keep in mind when dealing with the shades of grey found in discretionary trading. There are no absolutes!

That having been said...as always, the feedback received is greatly appreciated and taken under advisement.

Cheers! :)

[d-day]

With all due respect...just as "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder,"...valid or invalid is in the eye of the individual trader! What may be a valid setup to one...could be an invalid setup to another and vice versa. Trading does not nor never will fit nice and neatly into a cookie cutter mold...that's why it's called..."DISCRETIONARY!"

Hi Rob,

While I understand the sentiment, I would have to disagree with the premise, which,of course, necessitates a disagreement with the syllogism itself. While MTPredictor is not a "black box" system, and hence there is indeed an element of discretion in using the software, there can be no "discretion" as to the validity or invalidity of an MTPredictor defined set-up. That is, a TS4 qua TS4 either is valid vis a vis MTPredictor guidelines, or it is not valid. I don't want to get into a debate over what the meaning of "is" is; rather, my concern is that there are a good number of new MTP users coming here to this forum looking for guidance in the use of MTP; and I am not the only one who posts here who tries to make clear when I am "bending the rules" or otherwise using MTP in a manner that does not comport exactly with the guidelines for use as provided by the author of the software. As this forum is provided by Steve, and as he does allow us lunatics to more or less have the run of the asylum, then we ought to allow that each MTP set-up - TS1, TS2, TS3, TS4, and DP's - has a relatively easy to follow set of criteria by which to determine whether a particular instance of the signal is valid or not, and we ought not undermine Steve's attempts to make those rules plain to the newer and less experienced MTPtraders among us.

Good trading to you,

d-day

[jjc]

As I keep on saying - KISS.[/I][/B]!

IMO..I vote for keeping it simple.

On the ER, at DP, we had price to volume divergence and it sure looked to me like it wanted to come back to at least within value.



j

[Steve Griffiths]

Hi Rob,

As this forum is provided by Steve, and as he does allow us lunatics to more or less have the run of the asylum, then we ought to allow that each MTP set-up - TS1, TS2, TS3, TS4, and DP's - has a relatively easy to follow set of criteria by which to determine whether a particular instance of the signal is valid or not, and we ought not undermine Steve's attempts to make those rules plain to the newer and less experienced MTPtraders among us.

Good trading to you,

d-day

Hi RobE, and everybody,

I apologize and I did not mean to be harsh, but as David says here, this is a MTPredictor Forum and we have many new people looking at these posts for guidance on how to trade in the early days of using MTP.

So while I am more than happy to encourage the better traders out there to "do their own thing", and yes there are a lot lot of you that are very good and we can all learn form you. I would like to ask that you let it be know that you are "bending the rules" slightly based on experience.

This helps us by keeping the newer members on the straight and narrow while they learn.

I am happy to give everybody a lot of leeway on their posts, but please remember that there will people reading your posts who are new and not as good as you (yet) so need to "master the basics" first

Is this OK with Everybody ?

Thanks

Steve

[Rob E]

Hi RobE, and everybody,

I apologize and I did not mean to be harsh, but as David says here, this is a MTPredictor Forum and we have many new people looking at these posts for guidance on how to trade in the early days of using MTP.

So while I am more than happy to encourage the better traders out there to "do their own thing", and yes there are a lot lot of you that are very good and we can all learn form you. I would like to ask that you let it be know that you are "bending the rules" slightly based on experience.

This helps us by keeping the newer members on the straight and narrow while they learn.

I am happy to give everybody a lot of leeway on their posts, but please remember that there will people reading your posts who are new and not as good as you (yet) so need to "master the basics" first

Is this OK with Everybody ?

Thanks

Steve

Again...as always...D-Day, Steve and all...thanks for the feedback and I'm in complete agreement with you both as I failed to take the new users into consideration when I made my post...so for that I offer my apologies!

With that in mind...yes, the TS4 which I pointed out earlier did not conform to the standard MTP guidelines (for the reasons previously mentioned by Davidh and Steve) and I was bending the rules on that trade using my own discretion/experience. So I will certainly be more than happy to reiterate D-Day's and Steve's sentiments to the newer users...


FOLLOW THE STANDARD MTP GUIDELINES

until you gain more experience having learned the nuances (of when to bend the rules and when not to) of the MTP way and this biz as a whole!!!

My best to all and thanks again!!! ;)

[mitch]

An ER2 3 min DP Sell trade with clear divergence in progress.

Hi Rama. What is that DTMACD indicator you're using on the chart? I don't use Esignal and can't recall seeing it before?

Cheers Mitch

[rrs]

Hi Rama. What is that DTMACD indicator you're using on the chart? I don't use Esignal and can't recall seeing it before?

Cheers Mitch

Hi Mitch,

It is a proprietary version of MACD that was originally developed for use in TradeStation that was ported to Ninja Trader recently. I have used the TS version for a long time to identify and trade divergence. In combination with MTP signals, it provides me with a type of confirmation that I am used to in trading counter trend trades.

Sincerely,

Rama.

[TreeShaker]

Hi Everyone,

When do you guys rollover to the Mar contracts?

[jtrade]

Hi Everyone,

When do you guys rollover to the Mar contracts?

Hi, TS,

Globex index contracts usually roll the second Thursday of the expiring contract month, ie. switch to the March contracts the day after tomorrow. This is 8 days before the December contract actually expires.

You can put up both contracts in your broker quote window and see the volume switch - this is important if you trade fx futures, eg EC or BP, as the vol often does not switch when it's "supposed" to.

J.

[sullivar]

Hi Everyone,

When do you guys rollover to the Mar contracts?

I believe it's 'End of business day preceeding 3rd Fri of contract month'

This was taken from spread betting firm Capital Spreads

http://www.capitalspreads.com/downloads/specifications.pdf

[Rob E]

Hi Everyone,

When do you guys rollover to the Mar contracts?

In two days...i.e., this Thursday DEC. 13th! The general rule for rollover is as follows:

Rollover takes place on the 2nd Thursday of the expiration month and expiration itself occurs on the 3rd Friday of the expiration month.

[Rob E]

LOL...Jtrade, Sullivar

Looks like we were all typing @ the same time! :rolleyes:

Sorry 4 the redundancy! ;)

[TreeShaker]

Thanks everyone! IB flashed a msg this morning asking if I wanted to rollover my contract listings. I figured it must be time if they asked, but after I did it, I thought maybe not. So I guess I'm a couple of days premature.

[jjc]

Any one playing the FOMC?

I'm short on ES at 1523.75...looking for 8 points

j

[TreeShaker]

Any one playing the FOMC?

I'm short on ES at 1523.75...looking for 8 points

j

I'm glad somebody is getting something. Wow! The Feds must have said no rate cut. Look at yer drop.:eek:

[jjc]

Any one playing the FOMC?

I'm short on ES at 1523.75...looking for 8 points

j


Flat with a whole bunch of 'walkaroundmoney' :)


j

[TreeShaker]

Flat with a whole bunch of 'walkaroundmoney' :)


j

You're lucky the charts didn't spike up instead of down. :) Seems like a pretty risky play J. The oscillators are probably going to be worthless for the rest of the day. :rolleyes: What do you think?

[Steve Griffiths]

Hi Guys,

I hope you all had the Daily charts in the back of your minds ?

Steve

[jjc]

Seems like a pretty risky play


Risky Play you say?

You mean you didn't see that DP with divergence to go short? ;)

j

[d-day]

Any one playing the FOMC?

I'm short on ES at 1523.75...looking for 8 points

j

Nice trade if you held her all the way down - I just got in, its about 3:05 EST, and believe it or not, I'm fixin to go long.

[TreeShaker]

Risky Play you say?

You mean you didn't see that DP with divergence to go short? ;)

j

I'm referring to the intent of the Feds to announce yea or nay on the rate cut at approx. 1415 hrs EST, which is the time of the dive into the abyss.:eek:

[d-day]

Nice trade if you held her all the way down - I just got in, its about 3:05 EST, and believe it or not, I'm fixin to go long.

No dice on the long, as we just got new lows. As I'm not well versed at the DP continuation trade, I'l just keep sitting here waiting for a bounce to go short or a divergent bottom to go long. On FOMC days I wouldn't go opposite the initial reaction with a 123 bottom at a DP with divergence.

[TreeShaker]

Nice trade if you held her all the way down - I just got in, its about 3:05 EST, and believe it or not, I'm fixin to go long.

It looks like a falling knife right now. It gives good signals and then goes lower. If you figure something out to know when the plunge stops, let us all know.:D

[d-day]

It looks like a falling knife right now. It gives good signals and then goes lower. If you figure something out to know when the plunge stops, let us all know.:D

Long the NQ at 2095.50

[TreeShaker]

Long the NQ at 2095.50

Looks like that falling knife nicked you a little. :eek:

What happened to not going against the FOMC reaction?

[TAS]

Anyone got into DP continuation trade today ? ES, YM and ER2 all seem to have such chance...

TAS

[TreeShaker]

Anyone got into DP continuation trade today ? ES, YM and ER2 all seem to have such chance...

TAS

I was thinking about doing it so the market would stop and go the other way for the rest of you, but then I thought why should I be the martyr, let TAR do it. Just kidding TAR. :D

[d-day]

Looks like that falling knife nicked you a little. :eek:

What happened to not going against the FOMC reaction?

Not too bad, actually - I took 1/2 off at 2101 for +5.5 points and 1/2 was stopped at 2092 for -3.5 points for a net of +2 points on 1/2 the original position, which works out to .3R

Why did I take it? Because on the 3 minute chart I saw picture perfect pattern at a DP with divergence and I would have been very disappointed in myself had I not taken a chance on it and then sat there watching the shorts cover into the close.

My risk was 3.5 points - I tried to exit hald the position at 2102.5 but we didn't quite get there long enough for me to sneak out with +2R on that 1/2 which would have assured me of no worse than a 1R trade if my initial stop were to be hit on the remaining half (which, of course, it was). When I did not get a fill on my 21.02.5 limit, I took half off at the market, and 2101 was my fill.

All in all, though, contrary to so many folks who pass an opinion on this, my experience is that 80% of the time, the initial big move off the FOMC is the direction the market will trend for most of the rest of the day, if not right into the close. In fact, I do not remember the last time the market jumped one direction upon the FOMC announcement only to reverse and trend in the opposite direction. Today was unusual only in that after the inital spike down, we usually see 1/2 to all of that spike retraced before the trend reasserts itself. This was nearly straight down.

[Larry22]

Hi everyone, only 3 days until retirement. :D

Since I am giving a training to the person who will replace me I was unable to post my chart before the fact, still I would like to show you the ER2 60 min wave count and why it was ready for the fall.

We had at 799.3 (december contract) wave A= wave C, plus we had 11 waves in the C waves so for me this was a complete wave count.

The rest is now history. ;)

[pegasus5]

Hi Guys,

I hope you all had the Daily charts in the back of your minds ?

Steve


Steve...I've been following this one closely and keeping the MTP Boys hopefully prepared...Here is my latest rendition of the Daily ES.

Cheers,
David

Chart 1: 12/6/07

Chart 2: 12/11/07

We all should have been properly prepared for "anything", because "anything can happen"...Good Trading :)

[Larry22]

Another target that I had forgotten to talk about was the daily 50 % retracement that was also attained at 799.8.

So another reason why the market was enclined to drop.

[tar001]

hey
I resemble that remark hahahah
:D


I was thinking about doing it so the market would stop and go the other way for the rest of you, but then I thought why should I be the martyr, let TAR do it. Just kidding TAR. :D

[tar001]

If I was trading the Fed announcement which I was not as I made nice money in the morning and the volatility can kick your ass!! I would have taken this short, this is one thing that the minute charts don't give you sometimes

[tar001]

on the minute chart you hit resistance but there was no color reversal bar, the long I took in the morning and cashed out at 11am PST as I did not want to be long during the FOMC announcement. USUALLY what happens is you get a knee reaction one way(taking out stops) and then it goes the other direction VERY quickly. You really have to have nerves of steel to play it

[d-day]

during the FOMC announcement. USUALLY what happens is you get a knee reaction one way(taking out stops) and then it goes the other direction VERY quickly. You really have to have nerves of steel to play it

This is the exact opposite of what USUALLY happens on an FOMC announcement. Go back on your charts and look at the price action around FOMC decisions. As far back as I have gone, close to 80% of the time the market makes an initial sharp reaction, it then retraces 50%-100% of that initial move, and it resumes trending in the direction of that inital move until such time as it gives double or triple divergence and then goes in the other direction. The initial move is typically the right direction to position yourself in.

Also, I would caution against confusing the sharp volatile posturing and positioning that takes place in the moments leading up to the FOMC announcement for the initial reaction.

[jjc]

Short pre market ES @ 1516.75 per not too advanced MP rules

j

[jjc]

Short pre market ES @ 1516.75 per not too advanced MP rules

j

Scaling out at first support

j

[TreeShaker]

:p Short pre market ES @ 1516.75 per not too advanced MP rules

j

It doesn't matter if you make any money off those positions J, just save that first chart and in a few yrs. it will be worth thousands as modern art. LOL Make sure you sign it. :p

[jjc]

This TS3 might produce some folding stuff...we'l see

j

[TreeShaker]

This TS3 might produce some folding stuff...we'l see

j

Are you getting diver with that TSx? Watching the YM & ER2 3 min. I have had 2 to 3 signals on ea. but no clear diver on any signals.:(

[jjc]

Are you getting diver with that TSx? Watching the YM & ER2 3 min. I have had 2 to 3 signals on ea. but no clear diver on any signals.:(


TreeShaker

Not really on the divg, but take a peak at the STF, it's below the zero line so for me it's worth a try taking the trade....btw, it hit its first target.

You might want to review some of Steve's video's when you get a chanc