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gremtp

05-18-2007, 06:45 AM

I was wondering if I was the only one having doubts on this MTP NT issue.
I shared my initial thoughts in my post Nr. 107 on the Ninjatrader thread in the forum, where by the way I suggest we keep these issues. Do we have a choice and how do we feel about it?
For instance, I use FX and all the commodity futures: tons of charts and big radar screens in TS. Up and running with 3 or 4 clicks. Even if I wished to convert to NT, I will have to spend half of my waking time opening up charts and Market analysers every day!
I can understand Steve’s point of view and I wish Steve will consider my (and it clearly appears others’) point of view. I will dwell on this subject back in the Ninjatrader thread of the forum.
Here I would like to add my voice to point out several shortcomings of MTP NT, like the inexplicable lack of pages or worksheets to be saved, the fact that TS data feed is basically a joke and that IB data feed is ..well, cranky? (the famous download limitations mean that one has to wait for 5 minutes after a particular number of data lines is downloaded, so populating the Market Analyser template takes forever) plus a number of bugs.
I really wish and hope that a solution that accommodates both the needs of the programmers and users could be found in some ways.

Regards

tombtrader

05-18-2007, 07:52 AM

Good post gremtp.

I introduced the topic of range bars because, for me, it solved the one big problem I had with MTP - continually being stopped out by a tick - and thought others may benefit.

There is no "secret" I am not giving away. I trade short term range bars because THIS GIVES THE BEST LEVERAGE. Simple as that. It keeps the losses small and lets you make large R trades. The MTP philosophy.

Yes, I said that the MTP signals MUST be filtered in order to have a high win rate which is important to me. Also, I suggested that you use your favorite overbought/oversold indicator.

All this does require anyone who wants to do this to do some work to create setups that they have confidence in. Backtesting. There is no substitute for this. A trader needs to "own" his setups to have confidence to dig his heels in and put on each and every trade that meets the setup criteria.

Finally, yes, the best markets that I have found are DAX, FTSE and Russell. There others I am sure but I don't need more. I trade about 3 hours a day now and make enough to hit my target most days. FYI, I have had one losing day in the last month where I lost about $50. This is outstanding. I am not saying this to beat my own drum but to show what can be done with a LOT of work. The people I have taught to trade take about 3 months to become profitable so I don't think that I am doing anything through natural talent.

As Einstein said, genius is 98% perspiration and 2% inspiration.

Steve Griffiths

05-18-2007, 08:31 AM

Hi Everybody,

I do hear you all, and honestly I had never appreciated that there would be so many problems with NinjaTrader. For me it has been working well and many other users have used NinjaTrader OK as well. And personally, I like their program. However, I know that many of you have had problems.

I decided to program to NinjaTrader because of the many added features like the Market Analyzer, which I thought were a great addition above what eSignal has to offer. Also the ability to do far more than in TS8, all of which I had hoped would provide a better and more comprehensive and easier to use MTP program for you all. I had also hoped to simplify things here by only having only one RT platform to program to....

But I agree, things have not gone smoothly for many end users.............................

So yes, I will add a Poll on the Forum and ask you (the end users) what you wish me to do, and if most people want continued development in eSignal then I will, of course, look at what is involved, including the additional programming costs.

Please understand I am just trying to give people a better MTP product, but I am always willing to listen, and be guided by what you (our customers) want and need.

Thanks

Steve

jtrade

05-18-2007, 09:16 AM

Excellent posts from gremtp & tombtrader.

I have resisted the temptation to try eSignal + Ninja : much as I like the idea, range bars included (when they eventually appear in Ninja), I am too busy testing TS 8.3 (still in beta) which will give me the forex auto-execution for which I have been waiting. (8.3 has some way to go, btw...)

Initial problems getting new platforms to work together - Ninja & its datafeeds in this case - are to be expected; the important thing is that this does not become chronic, ie. never fully resolved, the plague of all trading software imho. Ray Deux of Ninja is one of the good guys, so let's hope he can get it all together FAST, as there does seem to be some great additional MTP functionality within Ninja.

In the meantime - &, Steve, I know you have not yet asked this of TS users - all I want for (early) Christmas is auto DP setup alerts for TS, please, preferably with the STF, 2+2 options. Go on, I know you can do it - I'm happy to pay for it :p . This will not stop me adding Ninja when the time comes, but like many, I have a lot going on within TS8 already.

I don't mean to discourage the "MTP RT Ninja direction" in any way, just to acknowledge the usually unavoidable real time realities of development periods being much longer than anticipated.

J.

swissoaktree

05-18-2007, 09:41 AM

[QUOTE=Steve Griffiths;8728]Hi Everybody,

Well the DP's certainly had a great day on the ER2 today .......... as you can see, they nailed every main turn in the market today on the 3min Chart - nice :)

Steve

I have a questiion regarding the 3 min ER2 trade that you showed on today's Daily report May 18, 2007:
I was under the impression that we needed to see Divergence using price pivots and the MTPSTF as a requirement for a valid setup? Am I not understanding something? Please educate me. I would have loved to have taken these trades, but I thought that I needed to see Divergence. Maybe you might be willing to address this question not only here on the forum but also in your next daily report. I would have to imagine that I am not the only one (maybe I am) who might be wondering as well.
As always Steve, thanks for your continued help. I have a lot to learn.

gremtp

05-18-2007, 09:56 AM

WOW! That’s what I call a responsive customer desk!!
Steve, your last post made most of the ranting I have promised in my previous post quite redundant, now. I will keep it for a better time, just in case.
I am a (reluctant) user of eSignal too, so I would support continuing the development of eSignal. I know TS programming is a bitch, but I would strongly favour that too, otherwise I will still be back to square one in terms of obsolescence of MTP TS.
I am completely with jtrade on this.

NT was originally created to do something else (I have used in them in the past to partially automate my entry/exit strategies). They have made impressive progress and are a very clever bunch of guys, but they have still quite some way to go to get to the level of other technical software. Perhaps they could try to address the issues coming out from the first "broad test" of MTP NT and maybe they will have a suitable product in the very near future, as jtrade seems to suggest?

Off topic: can I suggest that we try to keep this thread on US indices trading and move to the Ninjatrader thread? I am posting this message there too, as an encouragement….

Steve Griffiths

05-18-2007, 10:10 AM

I have a questiion regarding the 3 min ER2 trade that you showed on today's Daily report May 18, 2007:
I was under the impression that we needed to see Divergence using price pivots and the MTPSTF as a requirement for a valid setup? Am I not understanding something? Please educate me. I would have loved to have taken these trades, but I thought that I needed to see Divergence. Maybe you might be willing to address this question not only here on the forum but also in your next daily report. I would have to imagine that I am not the only one (maybe I am) who might be wondering as well.
As always Steve, thanks for your continued help. I have a lot to learn.

There are more ways to use the DP as an Advanced trader ;)

Steve

tombtrader

05-18-2007, 12:31 PM

Nice TS4 a little before the official open leaning on a DP. Almost got stopped out after the open but it gave you a second bite of the Russel if you missed the earlier entry.

I lie in wait for tghe trades that meet my criteria of a support or resistance area and overbough or oversold oscillator.

Lying in wait means you don't have to be so quick and us old farts aren't too quick.

I know at least 7 to 10 bars in advance where I want to trade and dig my heels in and put it on when my criteria is met. If I get stopped out, so be it.

Steve Griffiths

05-18-2007, 12:46 PM

Steve Griffiths

05-18-2007, 01:43 PM

Hi Guys,

Nice to see the profitable trades coming though :)

Steve

Steve Griffiths

05-18-2007, 03:59 PM

if you have been having problems opening NinjaTrader with open charts - ie NinjaTrader locking up when opening could you please send me an email

We have been working on a fix here with the Guys at NinjaTrader and would like to test a fix with some of you who have been having this issue.

This is why I like working with NinjaTrader, because they get issues resolved very quickly - always signs of a good company :)

Thanks

Steve Griffiths

tar001

05-18-2007, 08:37 PM

3 hours a day? can I ask what hours?(of course I can ask I guess the question is whether you will answer) hahah I think 3-4 hours a day would be plenty. Trading is very mentally draining and the secret is to be sharp at all times(the market lulls you to sleep and then BAM!!)

Good post gremtp.

I introduced the topic of range bars because, for me, it solved the one big problem I had with MTP - continually being stopped out by a tick - and thought others may benefit.

There is no "secret" I am not giving away. I trade short term range bars because THIS GIVES THE BEST LEVERAGE. Simple as that. It keeps the losses small and lets you make large R trades. The MTP philosophy.

Yes, I said that the MTP signals MUST be filtered in order to have a high win rate which is important to me. Also, I suggested that you use your favorite overbought/oversold indicator.

All this does require anyone who wants to do this to do some work to create setups that they have confidence in. Backtesting. There is no substitute for this. A trader needs to "own" his setups to have confidence to dig his heels in and put on each and every trade that meets the setup criteria.

Finally, yes, the best markets that I have found are DAX, FTSE and Russell. There others I am sure but I don't need more. I trade about 3 hours a day now and make enough to hit my target most days. FYI, I have had one losing day in the last month where I lost about $50. This is outstanding. I am not saying this to beat my own drum but to show what can be done with a LOT of work. The people I have taught to trade take about 3 months to become profitable so I don't think that I am doing anything through natural talent.

As Einstein said, genius is 98% perspiration and 2% inspiration.

tombtrader

05-19-2007, 07:48 AM

I trade the first couple of hours of the DAX and then the first couple of the Russel. If I had the energy I'd trade the last hour and a half of the Russel too.

tar001

05-19-2007, 01:05 PM

I see you missed my point in its entirety, I FULLY understand trading is a very difficult endeavour and am not looking for a black box as it does not exist. My point was that if that trade was something we were to be looking for then post it beforehand. I can go through ANY chart at the end of the day and show you what you should have done. When the market is closed trading is the easiest thing in the world.

Steve has sold as a tool - not a black box. Its up to each of us to work out the best way to use it that fits our trading personality and goals.

I applaud Steve for showing many ways to use his tool.

The MTP manual is a starting point for using MTP.

If you were to setup, day, three 5 minute charts each on a different market, you will have a starting point if you trade a la the manual. This will put you ahead of most traders by making you profitable to a degree.

What I had to do was to find a road to pay all my monthly bills from trading and to put away enough for the future. This requires a learning curve of years IMO.

So, starting the journey with the first step is the logical way to go.

I hope you succeed but realise that just buying the MTP software is not enough. Lots and lots of effort is required.

tar001

05-19-2007, 01:09 PM

I am thinking of trading the afternoons only, perhaps the last 3-4 hours. There is plenty of setups and movement and I think it would be easier to stay sharp ad focused? That or get some ADD medication. hahah:) :)

3 hours a day? can I ask what hours?(of course I can ask I guess the question is whether you will answer) hahah I think 3-4 hours a day would be plenty. Trading is very mentally draining and the secret is to be sharp at all times(the market lulls you to sleep and then BAM!!)

tombtrader

05-19-2007, 02:12 PM

tar001,sorry if I missed your point (2 posts above).

I went through the same frustration with MTP as many of us did.

Getting stopped out only having to re-enter a bar or two later became impossible for me so I worked to find a solution.

The basic MTP strategy of trading at market extremes is very attractive to me because I would know very quickly if I was wrong and if I was right I had a great trade location, and as you know its location location location.

So I had to work out how I could increase my win percentage as my trading personality needed this.

So that's what I did. It required hundreds of hours. Charts and testing.

But it all started from the basic methodology that MTP provides. That was my starting point.

Hope this helped.

d-day

05-19-2007, 05:19 PM

I introduced the topic of range bars because, for me, it solved the one big problem I had with MTP - continually being stopped out by a tick - and thought others may benefit.

I have, like everyone here, experienced the frustration of setting my stop too close, getting stopped out, and then watching the market move in what would have been a direction favorable to my position.

When trading MTP set ups, I have now set my stop 1-5 ticks under/over entry bar depending upon such factors as the market, volatility, whether the reversal is off the min wave C or typical wave C. If the low/high of the entry bar is a double bottom/top, then a standard MTP-style 1 tick stop is sufficient. If the entry bar is occurring in some Fibonacci "No Man's Land", then I will usually place my stop beneath/above a nearby swing pivot rather than the standard 1 tick MTP-type stop.

You can adjust the stop size in the risk/reward module so that ou can maintain your position size regimen. However, this will also alter the tick margin for your stop-entry as well. I find it easier to just calculate position size in these cases in my head based in these cases, as I still like to enter on a one tick stop entry even if I'm using a large tick margin for my exit stop.

qitrader

05-19-2007, 05:34 PM

Steve,

I was wondering if you can make the RR tool in NT to calculate the stop similar to the EOD version where you can freely select the price stop/entry/target by using the cross hairs. This should solve some of the problems where people are getting stopped out prematurely in their trades based on the 1 tick below bar rule.

Thanks

Steve Griffiths

05-19-2007, 06:20 PM

Hi Guys,

I find it amazing how everybody is so worried about being right, so much so that people are wiling to increases their initial risk and losses just so they don't get stopped out and as such cannot admit that a trade has gone wrong.

Increasing the size of your losses is absolutely the worst thing any trader can do.

I can't believe what I am reading here, has nobody understood anything that we teach here that keeping your losses small is vital to trading success...

Unbelievable..........

Steve

PS, I understand that this is a free world and anybody can do what they wish, but for anybody else reading this, you must understand that this is NOT what we teach. We tech to keep your losses small..............

This may work for some of the better traders among you, as you can filter your trades based on other criteria, but telling amateurs to increases their losses is insanity and advice not to be followed...

jswin

05-20-2007, 05:53 AM

I do not want to speak out of turn, but my interpretation of several previous posts was not that the respective traders advocated an increase in risk, but the ability to widen the number of ticks between entry and stoploss, based on certain technical factors, that would then necessitate a reduced position size, and thus adhere to the 2% rule.
I may be wrong, but it seems there has been a simple misunderstanding here.
:)

Steve Griffiths

05-20-2007, 09:15 AM

Ah......... yes you are right, my apologies....

I must read slower ;)

yes as long as the risks are controlled, then that is the important thing.

Steve

d-day

05-20-2007, 05:02 PM

You can adjust the stop size in the risk/reward module so that you can maintain your position size regimen. However, this will also alter the tick margin for your stop-entry as well. I find it easier to just calculate position size in these cases in my head based in these cases, as I still like to enter on a one tick stop entry even if I'm using a large tick margin for my exit stop.

There are times when a one tick stop is sufficient and appropriate. There are other times where a one tick stop is plain reckless. There is not a "one size fits all trades" approach to risk. Some trades I might only be risking a few ticks/contract, and others may require I risk 3 whole points/contract. I may be trading 20 ER2 contracts when only risking a few ticks. I'm probably trading only 1-3 ER2 contracts when my risk/contract is measured in points and not ticks.

gremtp

05-21-2007, 08:47 AM

I am sometimes quite liberal with the one tick rule, too. When I do, I decrease the number of lots appropriately. So I agree with David Day and the rest.
If I can just add my 2 cent on this debate, it is very true that it is not important being right. On the other hand it is even more true that you have to find a systems that you are comfortable trading.
I am still following (on paper, now) a system that I developed a long time ago. Looking at the stats, it is one of the best performers. Problem is that it is less than 15% right. I just could not find the guts to get in on a signal after 10 or more losing trades. Add to that the fact that the few good trades were usually signalled the day I was out at a meeting, or on holiday or when the PC did not work, etc. and I just could not stomach it. (hey, I think this could be a good one for the Murphy’s law on trading!:D )
Another system was better from a win/lose ratio point of view, but it used to give back a huge proportion of the open profit. If your feeling of frustration of having “lost” 50% of open profit is higher than your feeling of satisfaction for having made 10% profit anyway, in the long run you are going to hate that system.
If someone is happy with the drawback of systems like these, because he is only looking at the bottom line, he could follow them and be profitable. I could not. (By the way, MTP staff should be happy about that: I would not have looked around for other ideas and bumped into their tool!;) )
So, agreeing completely with Steve’s mantra that it is not important how many times you are right, I would suggest that it is also important how comfortable you feel with your system.

Steve Griffiths

05-21-2007, 01:22 PM

I hope you all caught the TS2 buy set-up in the ER2 ..........

+9R at the second profit target :)

Steve

tradertomw

05-23-2007, 12:16 PM

Did everyone but me get this trade. I am using TradeStation to feed Ninja and I did not get this signal. Is anyone else having data problems with TS?
Thanks
Tom

Matt Bowen

05-23-2007, 01:33 PM

Steve might be right about the daily setup, but I already tried to short this market and it's still strong...

I'm going after this TS4 and DP trade right now... will it work? You don't know until you put them on :)

Let's see what happens...

tar001

05-23-2007, 02:56 PM

did you see that was from the 21st? I have TS feeding Ninja and I have the trade on there.

Did everyone but me get this trade. I am using TradeStation to feed Ninja and I did not get this signal. Is anyone else having data problems with TS?
Thanks
Tom

Steve Griffiths

05-23-2007, 03:42 PM

Hi Everybody,

Not quite how I designed the DP trade but this automatic sell certainly nailed this decline on the 3min NQ :)

Perhaps I should leave the code at it is ;)

Steve

rrs

05-23-2007, 03:54 PM

The pictures say it all!

In addition to being very profitable today on both markets, I learned a lot of valuable lessons today by simply watching the MTP in action.

Thank you Steve for developing an excellent trading tool that is based on real market structure of support and resistance!

Rama.

Steve Griffiths

05-23-2007, 06:52 PM

Yep a brilliant day.

Here is the result of that short trade............. a profit of 10x the initial risk !!!

Steve

tar001

05-23-2007, 07:47 PM

using the ATR did you not get stopped out of the 3 minute YM? the NQ trade looks great(I wish I was in it) when you are in a trade like that and MTP is giving buy signals on the 3 minute, what gives you the courage(haha) to stay short?

The pictures say it all!

In addition to being very profitable today on both markets, I learned a lot of valuable lessons today by simply watching the MTP in action.

Thank you Steve for developing an excellent trading tool that is based on real market structure of support and resistance!

Rama.

rrs

05-23-2007, 11:19 PM

using the ATR did you not get stopped out of the 3 minute YM? the NQ trade looks great(I wish I was in it) when you are in a trade like that and MTP is giving buy signals on the 3 minute, what gives you the courage(haha) to stay short?

Hi,

It is a great question!

Let me describe the exact steps I went through (I write them down in my trading note book as the trade evolves) in managing this trade.

1) As a matter of routine analysis, I always look at the 60 Min chart. If there is a zone of strong resistance above the current price levels, I make a note of that level. Today, as the trading day started, this level was readily available and apparent on the 60 Min chart. I used the DP tool to locate this level in the 60Min chart.

Resistance (or support) levels in higher time frames have a very significant effect on the price. Steve, to his credit, has repeatedly highlighted this point several times in his daily reports.

(You could say that these higher time frame resistance or support levels have "Veto" power over lower time frames. Very rarely, like it happens in the real world, if there is enough price momentum this veto may be over ridden by the sheer force of demand seen in the markets)

2) In addition, I looked at the STF peaks. Two things became very clear: i) the STF peaks were getting progressively lower ii) the distance (the gap) between the trend strength band and the peaks of the STF was increasing. Both of these observations pointed to the possibility of the uptrend in the 60Min time frame showing significant weakening.

Taken together, these observations pointed to a "high probability decision" by the market to potentially reverse course and head in the opposite direction by declining from this level of resistance. I have attached the 60Min chart of YM from my archive for your perusal.

This analysis made it easy for me to hold my short position in YM and trail the price by using the ATR in the 5 Min time frame. You can see the attached chart of YM 5 Min and it clearly shows that the price hit the target DP level without going near the ATR Stop during the progress of the trade.

Other MTP users use different time frames charts to manage their trades. There is more than one approach to managing a trade. Matt (Bowen), for example, simply switches the rachet factor in the ATR Stop indicator off and trails the price.

My own experience seems to suggest that shorter the time frame, greater is the noise and as a result greater is the instability of price pivots. Adding to this challenge is the appearence, some times, of trading signals for trade entries that suggest to you to reverse the position you are currently in --i.e. if you are in a short position close the short and go long. Add to this mixture, the strong emotions of fear and greed, the simple task of managing a trade in real time becomes an enormously difficult and challenging.

Here is where your rapid decision making and execution skills, judgement and trading experience comes in. I agree whole heartedly with Steve when he says that a human trader possessing the necessary knowledge, experience and discipline is capable of achieving immensely more in the field of trading than any computer or a black box system. The strength of a human trader lies in his / her faculty of judgement whereas his / her vulnerability is strong emotions that often cloud sound judgement.

As I said in my previous message, I learned a lot today by simply watching the MTP in action and by following a set of my own routines in addition to the rules of MTP system of trade analysis.

Good luck in your trading.

Rama.

tar001

05-23-2007, 11:32 PM

Thanks for the detailed explanation, that was very informative. Those were great trades as well. :D

Hi,

It is a great question!

Let me describe the exact steps I went through (I write them down in my trading note book as the trade evolves) in managing this trade.

1) As a matter of routine analysis, I always look at the 60 Min chart. If there is a zone of strong resistance above the current price levels, I make a note of that level. Today, as the trading day started, this level was readily available and apparent on the 60 Min chart. I used the DP tool to locate this level in the 60Min chart.

Resistance (or support) levels in higher time frames have a very significant effect on the price. Steve, to his credit, has repeatedly highlighted this point several times in his daily reports.

(You could say that these higher time frame resistance or support levels have "Veto" power over lower time frames. Very rarely, like it happens in the real world, if there is enough price momentum this veto may be over ridden by the sheer force of demand seen in the markets)

2) In addition, I looked at the STF peaks. Two things became very clear: i) the STF peaks were getting progressively lower ii) the distance (the gap) between the trend strength band and the peaks of the STF was increasing. Both of these observations pointed to the possibility of the uptrend in the 60Min time frame showing significant weakening.

Taken together, these observations pointed to a "high probability decision" by the market to potentially reverse course and head in the opposite direction by declining from this level of resistance. I have attached the 60Min chart of YM from my archive for your perusal.

This analysis made it easy for me to hold my short position in YM and trail the price by using the ATR in the 5 Min time frame. You can see the attached chart of YM 5 Min and it clearly shows that the price hit the target DP level without going near the ATR Stop during the progress of the trade.

Other MTP users use different time frames charts to manage their trades. There is more than one approach to managing a trade. Matt (Bowen), for example, simply switches the rachet factor in the ATR Stop indicator off and trails the price.

My own experience seems to suggest that shorter the time frame, greater is the noise and as a result greater is the instability of price pivots. Adding to this challenge is the appearence, some times, of trading signals for trade entries that suggest to you to reverse the position you are currently in --i.e. if you are in a short position close the short and go long. Add to this mixture, the strong emotions of fear and greed, the simple task of managing a trade in real time becomes an enormously difficult and challenging.

Here is where your rapid decision making and execution skills, judgement and trading experience comes in. I agree whole heartedly with Steve when he says that a human trader possessing the necessary knowledge, experience and discipline is capable of achieving immensely more in the field of trading than any computer or a black box system. The strength of a human trader lies in his / her faculty of judgement whereas his / her vulnerability is strong emotions that often cloud sound judgement.

As I said in my previous message, I learned a lot today by simply watching the MTP in action and by following a set of my own routines in addition to the rules of MTP system of trade analysis.

Good luck in your trading.

Rama.

gremtp

05-24-2007, 05:36 AM

Rama
Brilliant post. Brilliant analysis. Thank you.

There are so many ways to trade with these tools. Different time frames, from long term to scalping, different charts, instruments, , etc. I regret I only can use just a few of them. Not enough time, resources, screens, to take more on board!
I wish there were some "mini me", each focussing on one bit...
Hey that's an idea...

davidh

05-24-2007, 07:28 AM

Hi,

It is a great question!

....This analysis made it easy for me to hold my short position in YM and trail the price by using the ATR in the 5 Min time frame. You can see the attached chart of YM 5 Min and it clearly shows that the price hit the target DP level without going near the ATR Stop during the progress of the trade.

Rama.

Hi Rama,
Good post, thank you.
I followed the same logic as you re the 5 minute YM short yesterday, but was stopped out by the ATR stop at 13623. Even with a zero ratchet setting I would have been stopped out at 13624. I use eSignal. Looks like there is quite a difference in application of the ATR between Ninja and eSignal?
David

rrs

05-24-2007, 09:34 AM

rrs

05-24-2007, 09:44 AM

Hi Rama,
Good post, thank you.
I followed the same logic as you re the 5 minute YM short yesterday, but was stopped out by the ATR stop at 13623. Even with a zero ratchet setting I would have been stopped out at 13624. I use eSignal. Looks like there is quite a difference in application of the ATR between Ninja and eSignal?
David

Hi David,

Thanks for your kind words. Yesterday, my NinjaTrader charts were powered by data from TradeStation. You bring up an important point regarding ATR in Ninja vs esignal. It is a question, I am sure, the tech support at MTP may be able to resolve.

Regards,

Rama.

Matt Bowen

05-24-2007, 10:40 AM

Steve Griffiths

05-24-2007, 11:15 AM

Hi Guys

Nice little DP trade just after the open on the ES ..... :)

Steve

Matt Bowen

05-24-2007, 11:47 AM

NICE START TO A LONG WEEKEND!!! :)

This is what I love about trading, you take a few hits the day before and then you catch a NICE break... now I don't have these two losing trades from yesterday on my mind.

The point is this: Don't let a couple of losing trades "de-rail" you or get your head in the sand... just take the small hits and then keep putting the trades on...because you never know which one is going to really bring in the bacon.

Yesterday, I was tied up on the phones and took 2 losing trades and never had the opportunity to get back in... but that does not bother me because trading is like riding the subway... there is another trade just minutes away, the key is to manage the losses because the will come and you have to be ready for the next winner AT ALL TIMES ;)

This trade stopped me out here on the ATR, but I still paid for both losing trades yesterday and I'm able to put something in my pocket.

Why am I telling you this? Because I talk to a lot of traders on the phone (and I enjoy doing this), but I'm also reminded how many of them fail to treat this like a business and this is the root cause of many traders not making money. My wish is that all of you become profitable. Don't worry about what pattern you like best or which one you think is better, every day is different and every day will allow each pattern to shine...some days one pattern just works a lot better than the other ones, if you manage each one correctly you will be rewarded very well for your efforts and this my friends is the secret to this business: Manage the trade, not the analysis.

My very best to you,

Matt

P.S. If you have some time over the weekend and you want to read something that will literally change your life... get a copy of this book: http://www.amazon.com/Psycho-Cybernetics-New-More-Living-Life/dp/0671700758

**Note** This book is available at almost any book store... I just can't believe it took me 40 years to find it, ha ha!

P.P.S. Last week I spent an incredible three days with Matthew Furey, the man who bought the rights to Psycho-Cybernetics. Wow, all I can say is read the book... This book is like an "Owner's Manual" for the Human Brain.

Steve Griffiths

05-24-2007, 12:09 PM

Hi Everybody,

Not a trade as such, but the DP certainally nailed today's high on the YM :)

Steve

Matt Bowen

05-24-2007, 12:28 PM

Here is something I get asked all the time and I'm not sure why, but it might help anybody who is trading intraday...

The Adobe Acrobat below will show you what my screen looks like during the day (just click on the link below)

Notice how you eyes go right to the middle of the chart where the Market Analyzer is...

I did this on purpose because it keeps your mind from wandering all over the place during the trading day. In other words, it keeps you focused on opportunities rather than playing around with your charts. Many people that I've done demos with really like this idea so I thought I would share it with you.

All the best,

Matt

Steve Griffiths

05-24-2007, 04:33 PM

Hi Guys,

As I suspected in today's report - a down day, so good to mainly look for sell set-ups, especially after the initial decline started to build.

So here is a nice Ts3 sell on a 3min YM chart that took advantage of this decline :)

Steve

PS, not a day for DP buys unless you get your stops to break even immediately.... but only for the brave in a down day like today. better (and safer) to be on the short side today ;)

Matt Bowen

05-24-2007, 05:09 PM

rrs

05-24-2007, 09:24 PM

Rama,

Great message!!!

I see you picked-up on the neat little STF trick. Yes, keeping an eye on the STF previous APEX and NADIR levels will serve you very well my friend.

Glad to see you expanding your horizons :)

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your comments. I found that the STF on its own and in combination with the trend strength bar conveys a great deal of information about the impending market moves.

Regards,

Rama.

tar001

05-25-2007, 01:31 AM

Hey Matt I have a couple questions regarding that YM 3 minute, one I dont see any DP on there? if you look at my attached chart you will see that during that short ride down I was getting a couple auto DP's. #2 how do you stay short that move when you have this DP +divergence? am I misreading this chart somehow?

I didn't get participate in yesterdays winning trades, but I sure made up for it today. The TS3 setups at the end were Great... we just ran out of time.

Take a look at those first two trades... can you imagine what would have happened if you didn't manage the trade or honor your stops? That's how people get into serious trouble. It's like I said earlier, if you manage the trade and NOT the analysis, you will do very well...you just have to follow the plan. People tend to make this stuff way too complicated and that's exactly opposite of how it needs to be done.

Bottom line, we made up for yesterday!

Steve Griffiths

05-25-2007, 04:42 AM

swissoaktree

05-25-2007, 08:25 AM

I didn't get participate in yesterdays winning trades, but I sure made up for it today. The TS3 setups at the end were Great... we just ran out of time.

Take a look at those first two trades... can you imagine what would have happened if you didn't manage the trade or honor your stops? That's how people get into serious trouble. It's like I said earlier, if you manage the trade and NOT the analysis, you will do very well...you just have to follow the plan. People tend to make this stuff way too complicated and that's exactly opposite of how it needs to be done.

Bottom line, we made up for yesterday!

Matt or anyone else for that matter: I noticed on the latter 2 charts you posted (YM and ER2) that even though they were on the different markets they were essentially the same trade occurring at the same time. If a similar setup does appear on 2 US markets at the same time with a similar setup do you take both of them or just choose one of them? If just one of them, how do you decide which one? It almost seems to me that if you take both of them that you are doubling your risk to a -2R rather than keeping it at a -1R if they are so identical. I have been pondering this question in general for some time since often in Maket Analyzer I am getting alerted to the same trade on sometimes 3 or 4 markets (I trade 4 US markets in RT).
I look forward to hearing a response regarding this multiple alert issue. Thanks

Steve Griffiths

05-25-2007, 08:46 AM

Just take one of then otherwise (as you say) you are increasing you overall risk profile.

Both these would have made approx +2r so they were the same result

Tony has a good way of prioritizing the minis, I will ask him to post on this later in the day for you all....

Thanks

Steve

tar001

05-25-2007, 09:28 PM

here is a great trade from today, very clean.

Hi,

Please see my comments from earlier...

"PS, not a day for DP buys unless you get your stops to break even immediately.... but only for the brave in a down day like today. better (and safer) to be on the short side today "

Steve

tar001

05-26-2007, 09:31 PM

I have a question regarding MTP, has anyone ever traded MTP ONLY using MTPredictor?(and MTP tools such as STF etc.) day trading only the US Emini's? what were your results? what are the most reliable time frames? as I look in history it seems that the 3 minute is but not sure that holds up in RT trading? I know that the % expectancy is about 40%? correct? can one still make money being wrong 60% of the time if you factor in commissions and slippage? being that the recommended account size is 20k$ can someone expect 10% per month? more? less? obviously 10% per month in the stock market would be great(10% a year is good) but this requires much more work/time/discipline/etc. I would welcome any feedback. I like the concept of keeping losses small and letting winners run(which MTP seems to do)
:cool:

tar001

05-26-2007, 09:35 PM

by the way if someone doesnt want to post any info on here for the world to see(haha) you can private message me?

I have a question regarding MTP, has anyone ever traded MTP ONLY using MTPredictor?(and MTP tools such as STF etc.) day trading only the US Emini's? what were your results? what are the most reliable time frames? as I look in history it seems that the 3 minute is but not sure that holds up in RT trading? I know that the % expectancy is about 40%? correct? can one still make money being wrong 60% of the time if you factor in commissions and slippage? being that the recommended account size is 20k$ can someone expect 10% per month? more? less? obviously 10% per month in the stock market would be great(10% a year is good) but this requires much more work/time/discipline/etc. I would welcome any feedback. I like the concept of keeping losses small and letting winners run(which MTP seems to do)
:cool:

Matt Bowen

05-27-2007, 01:45 PM

Hi Tar001,

I have a question regarding MTP, has anyone ever traded MTP ONLY using MTPredictor?(and MTP tools such as STF etc.) day trading only the US Emini's? what were your results?

Tony Beckwith provided a 1-year track record from trading the E-mini S&P 500and E-mini NASDAQ and E-mini DOW results. Here is the equity curve over a 52 week period and almost 800 trades.

http://www.mtpredictor.com/pricing/documents/RTPerformanceCurvedata220705.pdf

Here are the complete metrics on the system:

http://www.mtpredictor.com/pricing/RTRecordold.html

These results reflected 3 minute and 5 minute trades (all trades can be seen by clicking on the Microsoft Word document below:

Individual trades: http://www.mtptrader.com/RTrecord.doc (Word doc)

The rules for the trades can be found on chapters 7, 8 and 9 of Part-1 of the trading course:

http://www.mtpredictor.com/TC/TradingCourse1.html

what are the most reliable time frames?

A great question... here are two things to keep an eye on:

1.) If a system has been over optimized (to compensate for periods between drawdowns form apex (equity peak) and nadir (equity low) you will see this in the equity curve...so always ask to review at least 100 trades so that you have a large enough sample size to evaluate the system.

2.) When you go back and review the trades: http://www.mtptrader.com/RTrecord.doc take a look at the number of 3 minute versus 5 minute signals, how many worked on each set? Also, what was the expectancy of each set of results. As long as you have the results, all the answers are there, you just have to run the calculations.

If the system is robust (meaning it will perform well on all time frames) then this is really not a valid question, but because some vendors like to hide behind their 80% winning systems and not show you the REAL results, I can certainly understand why you would as the question. People get tired of buying BS and want some REAL answers. For once I would love to lock all of these vendors into a room (myself included) and make them day trade their systems with their own money for 1 solid week and then at the end of the week have a third-party accounting firm audit the results... I think people would be blow away by the BS claims that some of these vendors use to sell software. The main reason is because most companies that sell trading software don't even know how to trade.

Last week I sat in a demo with a well know day trading company that trades 1 minute charts and laughed so hard my stomach hurt. I ask the guy doing the demo what he was using for money management and he said: "Oh, we use stops". I said back to him: "Yes, I see you have a stop loss, but what is the position size?" needless to say I got some half baked answer about using profit targets and only trading a fixed number of contracts per account size.

So, I'm sitting here going no wonder people get sucked into these day trading traps...they only present the REWARD side of trading and completely avoid the side of RISK.

Most vendors say something stupid like: "You can open an account with limited funds and use this model". What they should really say is: "We'll give you a loaded gun... so you can blow your foot off".

For starters... when you trade a "Fixed unit per amount of money" like most day trading shops will have you trade 1 contract per every $1000. in your account and you are 3 times margin. The problem with this is that the vendor has completely forgotten about overexposure. Just because the day trading margins are $300. bucks per contract doesn't mean you should add more exposure. If anything this is financial suicide. It's now wonder you see all these traders biting-off more than they can chew and as a result they are WAY OVER leveraged. So, when they eventually do take a loss it hits them in the pocket book much harder than they ever expected and their drawdown to recovery ratio is extremely difficult to overcome. But your not going to hear this from a company trying to sell you software or a broker because they could careless about your success, they just want to sell you a system, if you blow-out they will just move on to the next sucker. After being in this business 24 years, I've heard just about everything under the sun.

as I look in history it seems that the 3 minute is but not sure that holds up in RT trading? I know that the % expectancy is about 40%? correct?

First let's define expectancy (please see the bottom of the page for the formula). I think what you meant to say was percentage to expect...so I wanted to eliminate any confusion for traders.

http://www.mtptrader.com/Expectancy.gif

The 3 minute chart produces the best results because you have something called the "opportunity factor". Baseball players understand this number better than anybody because it ties into their batting average and just like a trader: "How well they get paid".

Read this old post I did last summer:

http://www.mtptrader.com/showpost.php?p=4266&postcount=22

Opportunity Factor:

Probably the most important factor (besides Expectancy) in looking at set of trading metrics is the Opportunity Factor or How often you get to play the game, how many times you are at bat, how many trades you make in a given time period.

**note** At this point Van Tharp describes his marble game and how it relates to expectancy...so you really need to have read the proceeding pages to understand the metrics here.

Let's look at how the opportunity factor changes the value of a game. Suppose you could play the game for one hour. Since you could draw a marble every minute in game # 1, you'd have an opportunity factor of 60 or 60 chances to play the game. Next you in game # 2 you get to draw a marble every 5 minutes for game # 2, you'd have an opportunity factor of 12 or 12 chances to play the game.

Remember that your expectancy is the amount you would win per dollars risked over a large number of opportunities. Thus, the more times you can play the game, the more likely you are to realize the expectancy of the game.

Ok, now in order to evaluate the relative merits of each game, you must multiply the number of times you can play the game by the expectancy. When comparing the two games over an hour, assuming that you risk $1. each time, you'd get the following results:

GAME #1: Expectancy of 20 cents times 60 opportunities = $12.00

GAME #2: Expectancy of 78 cents times 12 opportunities = $9.36

Thus, given the opportunity restraints that we arbitrarily imposed, game #1 is actually better than game # 2 assuming you only risked $1. per trade. And when you evaluate expectancy in the market, you must give similar consideration to the amount of opportunity your system presents you. For example, a 50 cent expectancy system (after transaction cost) that gives you three trades per week is much better than a 50 cent expectancy system that gives you one trade per month.

Also go back and read this old link: http://www.mtptrader.com/showpost.php?p=6362&postcount=827

Why am I telling you all of this? Because it does me no good to know it myself, you must understand this stuff if you want to become a professional (profitable) trader. My job is to make sure you get the information and more importantly, understand and use the information. Too many traders wake up every morning drink a cup of coffee and then proceed to bang out a bunch of trades like a "loose cannon cowboy" who sprays bullets all over the place. Show me a trader who understands these numbers and I guarantee you that trader is making money. Because the system will tell them if it has a negative expectancy and if that's the case...they will go find a rubust system that has a positive expectancy like MTPredictor.

can one still make money being wrong 60% of the time if you factor in commissions and slippage? being that the recommended account size is 20k$ can someone expect 10% per month? more? less?

Well, we already proved that it's not only possible, but highly profitable: http://www.mtpredictor.com/pricing/RTRecordold.html

When you review the metrics breakdown the numbers:

Initial acct: $50,000

Current level: $184,846

% chg: +273.7%

$184,846 - $50,000 = $134,846 total profit

Now divide that by 52 weeks and you at about $2600. per week

by the way if someone doesn't want to post any info on here for the world to see(haha) you can private message me?

I don't think anybody has anything to hide. We provide the tools, you provide the desire and commitment.

All the best to you,

Matt

Risk Disclosure and Performance Disclaimer Statements

CFTC RULE 4.41 - HYPOTHETICAL OR SIMULATED PERFORMANCE RESULTS HAVE CERTAIN LIMITATIONS. UNLIKE AN ACTUAL PERFORMANCE RECORD, SIMULATED RESULTS DO NOT REPRESENT ACTUAL TRADING. ALSO, SINCE THE TRADES HAVE NOT BEEN EXECUTED, THE RESULTS MAY HAVE UNDER-OR-OVER COMPENSATED FOR THE IMPACT, IF ANY, OF CERTAIN MARKET FACTORS, SUCH AS LACK OF LIQUIDITY. SIMULATED TRADING PROGRAMS IN GENERAL ARE ALSO SUBJECT TO THE FACT THAT THEY ARE DESIGNED WITH THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT. NO REPRESENTATION IS BEING MADE THAT ANY ACCOUNT WILL OR IS LIKELY TO ACHIEVE PROFIT OR LOSSES SIMILAR TO THOSE SHOWN.NO REPRESENTATION IS BEING MADE THAT ANY ACCOUNT WILL, OR IS LIKELY TO ACHIEVE PROFITS OR LOSSES SIMILAR TO THOSE DISCUSSED WITHIN THIS SITE, SUPPORT AND TEXTS. OUR COURSE(S), PRODUCTS AND SERVICES SHOULD BE USED AS LEARNING AIDS ONLY AND SHOULD NOT BE USED TO INVEST REAL MONEY. IF YOU DECIDE TO INVEST REAL MONEY, ALL TRADING DECISIONS SHOULD BE YOUR OWN.

tar001

05-27-2007, 03:42 PM

now now, no hypotheticals, real money, real time:) I am actually surprised at such results on standard unfiltered TS setups? throw the DP's and filtered Ninja Trader setups and you might really be talking. Thanks for the in depth response.

chrisg

05-27-2007, 05:22 PM

HI

I know that range bars have become a hot topic sine being introduced by tombtrader, so i thought i would let you all know that there is an article in the June issue of technical analysis of stocks and commodities on page28. I know that the concept behind range bars a pretty simple but it does give some good in site, and some ranges that they recommend for US markets.

chris

Steve Griffiths

05-28-2007, 05:06 AM

by the way if someone doesnt want to post any info on here for the world to see(haha) you can private message me?

Hi Tar001

yes you certainly can and a number of MTPredictor users have posted their actual results in the past and have made some very good profits.

The reason you have not gotten any answers now is that the good traders here will not post their results because it generates too many questions for them from the amateurs on the Forum. And put frankly, they are only interested in trading and not answering silly questions form amateurs.

So to answer your question, yes there are many MTPredictor users make good money (in real accounts) but like all good traders they remain anonymous as they are more interested in getting on with the business of making money on their own accounts

Steve

pbb

05-28-2007, 08:08 AM

pbb

05-28-2007, 08:18 AM

oh and yes I am highly profitable using mtp

Matt Bowen

05-28-2007, 11:54 AM

Hi Tar001,

What did you expect...somebody was going to haul out their trading statements, scan the documents along with their 1099 files on the web?

First off, I'm not even sure who you are... so before I go getting involved in helping you, I'm going to refrain from providing any additional help here. This is one of the reasons we changed the bulletin board policy from having non-users posting these types of questions.

Second, all too often we were getting into a "cat and mouse" games with these people who have no agenda in life other than to waste people's time. What's even more crazy is some of these people we were talking to were other trading software vendors who where just jerking us around here and wasting our time. So, we made the bulletin board available to all viewers, but only users could post messages. I don't have time to deal with these kinds of antics nor will I put up with them. We built this bulletin board for serious traders who were looking for answers and wanted eliminate the BS that other vendors seem to thrive on. If you are not convinced of our ethics, then maybe MTPredictor is not the program for you, but I'll let you be the judge of that. We also realize that in some of these cases traders are serious, but have been burned by other vendors, so we are sympathetic to their needs and that's one of the reasons this board is viewable by everyone.

Bottom line, I have no idea who you and if you wish to remain anonymous we will certainly respect that. However, that also puts you in the "suspect class" along with the "tire kickers and window shoppers". If you are serious and want me to put you in contact with some REAL traders who are making REAL profits then call me on Tuesday and I'll be glad to put you in touch with people (providing they have the time and are willing to speak to you). Obviously, this takes many phone calls and eats up time, so if you are serious, then call me on Tuesday.

I look forward to speaking with you,

Matt

tar001

05-28-2007, 02:10 PM

Hi
thanks for the input, that is good to hear.

oh and yes I am highly profitable using mtp

tar001

05-28-2007, 02:15 PM

Matt
Of course I did not expect that, I was putting a feeler out to see if MTP can be used alone as most people I have talked to use it with other tools. To me using it in conjunction with other methods was getting way too confusing(paralysis through analysis) some have responded by personal message and I am glad I asked the question. I am not a tire kicker I already purchased MT Predictor. I was certainly not asking anyone for personal info, I was asking if daytrading the US indices using ONLY MTPredictor was profitable enough to be done as a full time profession.

Hi Tar001,

What did you expect...somebody was going to haul out their trading statements, scan the documents along with their 1099 files on the web?

First off, I'm not even sure who you are... so before I go getting involved in helping you, I'm going to refrain from providing any additional help here. This is one of the reasons we changed the bulletin board policy from having non-users posting these types of questions.

Second, all too often we were getting into a "cat and mouse" games with these people who have no agenda in life other than to waste people's time. What's even more crazy is some of these people we were talking to were other trading software vendors who where just jerking us around here and wasting our time. So, we made the bulletin board available to all viewers, but only users could post messages. I don't have time to deal with these kinds of antics nor will I put up with them. We built this bulletin board for serious traders who were looking for answers and wanted eliminate the BS that other vendors seem to thrive on. If you are not convinced of our ethics, then maybe MTPredictor is not the program for you, but I'll let you be the judge of that. We also realize that in some of these cases traders are serious, but have been burned by other vendors, so we are sympathetic to their needs and that's one of the reasons this board is viewable by everyone.

Bottom line, I have no idea who you and if you wish to remain anonymous we will certainly respect that. However, that also puts you in the "suspect class" along with the "tire kickers and window shoppers". If you are serious and want me to put you in contact with some REAL traders who are making REAL profits then call me on Tuesday and I'll be glad to put you in touch with people (providing they have the time and are willing to speak to you). Obviously, this takes many phone calls and eats up time, so if you are serious, then call me on Tuesday.

I look forward to speaking with you,

Matt

Steve Griffiths

05-28-2007, 02:41 PM

hi Tar001

Can you please send me an email letting me know who you are.

Thanks

Steve Griffiths

swissoaktree

05-29-2007, 08:20 AM

Matt or anyone else for that matter: I noticed on the latter 2 charts you posted (YM and ER2) that even though they were on the different markets they were essentially the same trade occurring at the same time. If a similar setup does appear on 2 US markets at the same time with a similar setup do you take both of them or just choose one of them? If just one of them, how do you decide which one? It almost seems to me that if you take both of them that you are doubling your risk to a -2R rather than keeping it at a -1R if they are so identical. I have been pondering this question in general for some time since often in Maket Analyzer I am getting alerted to the same trade on sometimes 3 or 4 markets (I trade 4 US markets in RT).
I look forward to hearing a response regarding this multiple alert issue. Thanks

Steve: This is simply a friendly reminder that on the Forum last week you responded to me indicating that you would ask Tony how he prioritizes his trades when multiple alerts are appearing in the US Indices (ER,YM,NQ,ES) all at the same time. I have a feelling that Matt B. might have some insight to this as well and would appreciate it if he would also be willing to share his thoughts on this subject.

Tony Beckwith

05-29-2007, 09:18 AM

Hi swissoaktree

My way has always been based on liquidity and chart interval.

1. higher the open interest = higher the priority.
2. longer the chart timeframe = higher the priority.

So...
ES 5m
ES 3m
ER2 5m
ER2 3m
NQ 5m
NQ 3m
YM 5m
YM 3m

This means if several alerts sound simultaneously, I simply take the highest in the list. Nothing subjective, nice and simple.

Hope that helps.

Tony.

Steve Griffiths

05-29-2007, 03:13 PM

Hi Everybody,

Nice DP sell on the Er2 from the high of the day !

4x profit as a buy DP came in ........... nice start to the week :)

Steve

Steve Griffiths

05-29-2007, 04:40 PM

And here is +2R on the way back up again..... :)

Steve

swissoaktree

05-29-2007, 04:51 PM

I trade the first couple of hours of the DAX and then the first couple of the Russel. If I had the energy I'd trade the last hour and a half of the Russel too.

I have 2 fast questions for you because I do not want to take up much of your time.

#1- In an earlier Post, I beleieve that you indicated that you trade the Russell, Dax and Ftse. Since the Dax and Ftse are both European markets that start trading around midnight US time give or take a couple of hours depending on US time zone, am I correct to assume that you get up in the middle of night to trade these markets and then start again in the morning on the Russell? I am assuming that you live in the US, but maybe I am assuming incorrectly.

#2- You had mentioned in a previous Post about traders using their favorite overbought/oversold indicators. I am curious to know which OB/OS indicator you feel works best?

Thank you for your time.

tombtrader

05-30-2007, 01:17 AM

No, I live in Europe. Used to be a disadvantage but now its an advantage.

Use the OB/OS that works best for you.
and that you have had the most screen time with.

Steve Griffiths

05-30-2007, 01:34 PM

The chart says it all...........

DP to DP for +4R :)

Long from the low of the day - brilliant :) :)

Steve

scooper

05-30-2007, 02:31 PM

Hi Steve

I saw that one but did not take it because of a lack of divergence. Have I missed a more advanced setup there?

Cheers
Steve

Eckbert

05-30-2007, 02:39 PM

Hi Steve

I saw that one but did not take it because of a lack of divergence. Have I missed a more advanced setup there?

Cheers
Steve

Hi Steve, go to the monthly seminars , under DP setups and you will see in one of the videos this setup is described by Steve.
Eckbert

Steve Griffiths

05-30-2007, 02:44 PM

yep........... please see the monthly seminars in the members section of the web site

Not bad though, long from the low of the day to take profits at what is looking like the high of the day :)

Steve

scooper

05-30-2007, 03:35 PM

Thanks Eckbert / Steve

I will have a look again. I think I need to create myself a quick setup guide as sometimes I sit and watch these setups and forget the advanced stuff as they are not used all the time. Always great in hindsight of course!

Eckbert....I also took the 2 trades on the FTSE today and I am -2R. I was not using the ATR stop on the second entry. Also, if you trade the DAX I hope you did not take the trades last week which gave me a -3R from a repeating same TS3 entries that were stopped out before even getting going -I had to swallow hard and just keep entering as the 2+2 rule was making the entries possible.

All this gives me a question to ask Steve.....if the market trades to the 100% risk level should I be moving my stop to B/E when trading intraday? Normally I would wait for a bar to close below the 100% risk level when using daily charts. Is it the same using intraday?

Actually looking back now I see the 100% risk level was 6545.50 which was actually higher than a closing bar of 6545.00

Hence I may have answered my own question and therefore have taken an unnecessary -1R on that trade my stop could have been moved to B/E on the close of 6545 bar. I'm interested to know why you were using the ATR stop though Eckbert? I had not thought of that as the strength band on my NT chart was not exceeding the bands...

BTW and FYI I am a self confessed hopeless manual trader who is working hard on discipline and I'm getting there (lots of mental work going on) but I do need mentoring to get this right as it not easy! What in life is easy ?

I appreciate all your comments and really value your advice guys.

Cheers
Steve

Steve Griffiths

05-30-2007, 04:12 PM

Hi Steve,

As outlined in Part 2 of the Trading Course, no 100% guideline for intraday. You can use the ATRStop (like Eckbert did) until you reach the WPTs, then look at the strength band to decide whether to use the WPT's or continue with the ATRstop for trade management...

Steve

Eckbert

05-31-2007, 02:28 AM

Hence I may have answered my own question and therefore have taken an unnecessary -1R on that trade my stop could have been moved to B/E on the close of 6545 bar. I'm interested to know why you were using the ATR stop though Eckbert? I had not thought of that as the strength band on my NT chart was not exceeding the bands...

Hi Steve, why the ATR stop? I have posted a 3 min and a 5 min chart. On the 3min chart you can see the rising bottoms and trendline support. On the 5 min chart look at the blue reversal candle.

While I was in the trade I had my eyes on a potential DP low projected from the 25/05 low. It did not work out. Looking in hindsight I should have gone long with the trendline breakand used the price projections as from the brown dotted line or the DP as my target. As I was told once: LOOK AT THE CHARTS AND NOT WHAT YOU THINK. Yes in hindsight this always easier.

I hope Steve this answers your question. Do yourself a favour and play those monthly seminars over and over. Its aamazing how much you forget and new stuff you pickup:D

Eckbert

scooper

05-31-2007, 09:39 AM

Cheers Ecbert, I have been back through them today and I have refreshed my memory......I'm making a quick one page sheet to help me remember the rules also.

Thanks again
Steve

Steve Griffiths

05-31-2007, 10:10 AM

Hi Guys,

Don't forget the DP "continuation" trade from yesterday as well, as outlined in today's training report :)

Another +4R yesterday ....

Steve

Steve Griffiths

05-31-2007, 03:01 PM

Hi Everybody,

Not all days make huge profits, here is a small one from today on the 3min ER2....

Steve

rrs

06-04-2007, 11:49 AM

A successful DP Trade

Rama.

Eckbert

06-04-2007, 11:52 AM

rrs

06-04-2007, 12:01 PM

Hi everybody,

on the ER2, NQ and ES there is a strong 30 min DP resistance. Anybody noticed it. It seems as if it will hold.

A nice DP divergence trade on the NQ 3 min opening yielding a nice RR of 6 while there was a nice DP short on the ER2 3 min chart also yielding a RR of 3,3. :D

Cheers Eckbert

Hi Eckbert,

The 60 min charts of both ER2 and NQ appear to indicate that current DP (resistance) levels to be holding, and as Steve indicated this morning in his daily report the high, particularly in NQ, may be unfolding.

Rama.

Eckbert

06-04-2007, 12:19 PM

Hi Rama yes only time will tell and I am sure there will be plenty of beautifull setups before the DP low is reached.

Eckbert

swissoaktree

06-05-2007, 09:46 AM

Steve: When price reached the second DP level why did you decide to use a trailing stop rather than an ATR Stop?
Thanks

Steve Griffiths

06-05-2007, 10:08 AM

Because the ER2 was also at DP support, I think I also said this in the report.

Steve

scooper

06-05-2007, 10:50 AM

Hi

Is anybody else long off the DP setup on the YM 3 Minute (opening gap DP).

I think this is a valid trade just want confimation that its valid.

Cheers
Steve

scooper

06-05-2007, 10:55 AM

Well just had my stop taken out for -1R.

scooper

06-05-2007, 11:17 AM

jands

06-05-2007, 11:22 AM

And then I thought we had a continuation so I took a short only to get stopped out again.

-5.3R (inc commision etc)....just not my day.

Can anybody advise if I was correct to take the first DP or the continuation plz?

Hi Scooper,

You should email support@MTPredictor.com. It's always best to get it straight from the horse's mouth.

Keep at it,

Jim

Steve Griffiths

06-05-2007, 11:25 AM

Hi Guys,

A dangerous DP long trade to take off the opening today because of the larger degree picture (NQ at Wave 5 high), I suspect we may get a big down day today ???

Steve

scooper

06-05-2007, 11:38 AM

Hi guys,

Maybe just me being an unlucky general again. I was trying real hard to trade what I saw although I do believe we are overdue a correction also. Last week I missed the big DP open trade and missed the big win......

My luck needs to change as I will not survive if my win ratio is 10%.......even if my avg win to avg loss is reasonable.

A live trading room would be good to bounce ideas off people? I would find it useful for sure so I'm not taking the 'dangerous trades'.

If there is anyone who would be interested let me know because I do need mentoring as this is a hard business.

Steve

jcsteward

06-05-2007, 11:44 AM

jands

06-05-2007, 11:47 AM

Hi guys,

Maybe just me being an unlucky general again. I was trying real hard to trade what I saw although I do believe we are overdue a correction also. Last week I missed the big DP open trade and missed the big win......

Steve

Hi Scooper,

I know how you feel because I have felt the same way. But what I found out was that I was not ready and that I needed to put more work in. It was my impulsive nature that got me a little success and then got me killed on numerous occassions.

Just a thought because I have written in my journal several times it's better not to lose money that to lose a bunch. (But then I hate sitting on the sidelines watching good trades go to the moon.) BUT HEY THAT IS THE EMOTIONAL NATURE OF TRADING;-)

Good luck,

Jim

scooper

06-05-2007, 12:04 PM

Hi

I thought about going to play golf and take a break. But I did that last week after being fleeced by the DAX on an entry that took me in 3 times to stop me out next bar.

Of course the next trade I should have taken would have been a nice winner! I could not win.

In fact it look like jcsteward would like guidance too or at least the facility in real time to understand where we may be going wrong.

I'm positive this works its just I am not an expert or successful yet so I'm looking for help now rather than when I'm broke ;-)

I've just entered on a good looking TS3 on the 3 min YM. Lets see what happens. Short at 13639, stop @ 13653.

Cheers
Steve

Steve Griffiths

06-05-2007, 12:14 PM

Hi Steve,

Nobody said successful trading was easy.............. in fact the hardest part is psychology and keeping a level mind. Losses can and will happen, that is something we all have to accept, and sometimes it feels like we can do nothing right.

But as already said, by keeping the losses small we survive to fight another day, and that is vital.

Steve

scooper

06-05-2007, 12:26 PM

Hi Steve

I agree a lot is in the mind and I have put everything aside to go back in on the YM 3 min TS3 as the setup looks OK.

I'm managing the losses (slippage hit me a bit earlier) so I will fight another day even if I'm hopping on one leg:D

scooper

06-05-2007, 12:44 PM

This one is working (TS3 on YM 3 Min). I'm now managing the trade with the ATR stop (based upon Steve's earlier comment).

There you go. If I went to play golf I would not have this one on the board Lets see where it goes......

Steve Griffiths

06-05-2007, 01:12 PM

Hi Steve...........

There you go, all your -5R losses back in one BIG profit on just one trade - that is the power of MTPredictor :)

Steve

Steve Griffiths

06-05-2007, 01:13 PM

As a PS, I did say earlier that I was anticipating a decline today, so I hope you were all listening ;)

Steve

Steve Griffiths

06-05-2007, 01:14 PM

Sorry, here is the chart

Steve

scooper

06-05-2007, 01:18 PM

Hi Steve

Yep, mighty chuffed!!!

My ATR stop is now in at 13608 (3.2R). I'm tempted to take profits BUT if I don't let it run I might regret it.

Its good to talk to people who are more experienced so you can keep the faith (as such) when its get REAL rough

Also you need to get to know how to WIN which is a big a part of the mental game as any....so I'm riding this with ATR.

:D

Steve Griffiths

06-05-2007, 01:21 PM

No problem Steve,

Glad to help................ You can buy me a Beer sometime ;)

Steve

PS, now at +6R :)

So I would be mighty tempted to lock in at least +5R so you come out at least break-even after your other losses.....

scooper

06-05-2007, 01:29 PM

Update.....Just locked in 4.4R with ATR stop moved to 13595.

:D

Just read your post as I posted and will do. Better to be off scratch than even a little down after today's rollercoaster.....

scooper

06-05-2007, 01:39 PM

Just stopped out +5R (less commission).

YM reversed right at Typical WPT support and your call was on the button Mr G.

Lager or bitter?:D

Steve Griffiths

06-05-2007, 01:50 PM

Hi Steve.

Bitter please ;)

But seriously, I hope this has been a good lesson for all those of you who been following along in the background ?

Do you see how MTP kept the losses small on the loosing trades then brought Steve back into profit with just one BIG profitable trade. This is the real key to successful trading and is what makes you money over time. Small losses and big profits ....

And you have all sen this trade unfold in real-time thanks to Steve's posts, so there can be no bickering about "hindsight cherry picking" as Steve did this trade live with real money !

Thanks

Steve

tar001

06-05-2007, 09:32 PM

Short and then long from the DP with divergence.

Steve Griffiths

06-06-2007, 04:40 AM

Hi Tar001,

Brilliant, yes the automatic routines nailed some good trades for you there :)

Yesterday was a great day overall, and everybody I have spoken to had a very good and very profitable day - so well done to all of you...

Steve

Steve Griffiths

06-06-2007, 11:11 AM

Hi Guys

Nice to see Europe making the most of the Gap lower in the USA.

Here is a chart I posed in another thread. +3R here (so far) after another +7R earlier this morning (UK time)................ nice :)

Steve

Steve Griffiths

06-06-2007, 02:45 PM

Hi Everybody,

Well the CAC short is still going............ now at +8R profit (and this after a +7R this morning).............. brill :)

Steve

Steve Griffiths

06-07-2007, 08:01 AM

Hi Everybody,

And here we go again on the FTSE +4R :)

Steve

stylist

06-07-2007, 02:09 PM

What a great quick 6R at first target
Sitting on the hands is really rewarding:rolleyes:

tar001

06-07-2007, 05:29 PM

but still a nice trade

tar001

06-07-2007, 05:32 PM

a better shot(it was also on a 5 minute so there was added confidence)

but still a nice trade

Steve Griffiths

06-07-2007, 05:33 PM

Hi Guys,

yep another good day today ............. I suspected we would get another down day (form the daily report) so it was good to see some nice sell set-ups to make to most of the decline :)

NQ 3min got in on the action as well ....

Steve

tar001

06-07-2007, 09:42 PM

do the index futures rollover today? we will be trading the Sep. contract?

tar001

06-08-2007, 01:36 AM

as a heads up the contracts rolled over today(even though obviously the June contract could still be traded) so everyone should switch to Sep. wasnt it JUST Christmas? yikes!!:confused:

do the index futures rollover today? we will be trading the Sep. contract?

tar001

06-08-2007, 06:01 PM

on a day like today does anyone use any other indicators to go long? no long setups on MTP today and it is quite frustrating to watch the market go higher without me along for the ride? it has been a decent week so I am NOT complaining, just asking as the only trades today were DP sell setups(which were obviously wrong)

Matt Bowen

06-08-2007, 07:17 PM

What do you mean??? You must have forgot to turn the coffee pot on :)

Today was GREAT!!! There was a DP trade on the Russell that missed the DP target, but still made $650. and the Rally into the close made for a +2k day. I put clients into these setups as we found them... Friday's don't get much better than this...

pegasus5

06-08-2007, 07:59 PM

swissoaktree

06-08-2007, 09:29 PM

Just as an FYI, I am using Ninja with Zenfire and Matt's trades did show up.

rrs

06-08-2007, 09:43 PM

Matt,

I don't see the TS3 setup you are displaying on my chart of the YMU07 (september contract).

Are we looking at the same chart? and if so why am I not getting identical TS3 setup you display?

This seems to be a common occurance between various users of MTP Software.

Good Trading,
David

Hi David,

I am sure Matt will answer your question. In the mean time, when I looked at the YM chart Matt posted I noticed that it is the Continuous Contract of YM on a 3 min interval. Esignal's symbol for the Continuous Contract of YM is YM #F,3

Regards,

Rama.

tar001

06-08-2007, 11:12 PM

I do not show that trade either, I do have a DP on the 5 minute Russell but using the ATR you can see it was stopped out for a small gain(better than a loss I suppose)

What do you mean??? You must have forgot to turn the coffee pot on :)

Today was GREAT!!! There was a DP trade on the Russell that missed the DP target, but still made $650. and the Rally into the close made for a +2k day. I put clients into these setups as we found them... Friday's don't get much better than this...

tar001

06-08-2007, 11:20 PM

so you dont think Im blind(hahah)

tar001

06-08-2007, 11:27 PM

that is strange, I do not show that DP trade on mine? Im glad I dont but its strange. I am using the same contract month as you.

Matt,

I don't see the TS3 setup you are displaying on my chart of the YMU07 (september contract).

Are we looking at the same chart? and if so why am I not getting identical TS3 setup you display?

This seems to be a common occurance between various users of MTP Software.

Good Trading,
David

tar001

06-08-2007, 11:28 PM

perhaps you have your filters off?

Matt,

I don't see the TS3 setup you are displaying on my chart of the YMU07 (september contract).

Are we looking at the same chart? and if so why am I not getting identical TS3 setup you display?

This seems to be a common occurance between various users of MTP Software.

Good Trading,
David

Steve Griffiths

06-09-2007, 07:52 AM

Hi Everybody

I agree with Matt, Friday was a good day, here is the one I was looking at on the 5min NQ - all filter ON so a "standard" trade, +2.5R.

BUT for the "advanced" traders, they should have been expecting a rally yesterday (more in this in Monday's report, so could have found additional trades.

Steve

Steve Griffiths

06-09-2007, 07:58 AM

However............

For the advanced users among you.

1. Once the DP longs came in early in the day, this would have set the trend to be up.

2. A "bounce" yesterdays was to be expected after the prior 3 days sharp declines (I actually said as much in Fridays report).

So advanced users could have been aggressively looking for long trades, and this would have meant turning the filters off so the TS 3 buys around 12:30 came up (against the red STF at the time)

See below

Again, this is where the advanced trader who is thinking for themselves and knowing the larger degree position of the market can do very very well indeed

Steve

pegasus5

06-09-2007, 10:49 AM

Hi Rama,

Yep, there is definitely differences in signals with using Continuous Contract versus using Contract Month symbols. So this can be a bit confusing for some in this regard.

I had always been advised by MTP Staff to use current contract month such as YMU07.D (TradeStation) and avoid the Continuous Contract. So there is the difference regarding this particular signal firing. It would be nice if all had identical signals.

I have also found that there are distinct differences in signals generated between Data Providers. Example: E-Signal generating TS# signals where TradeStation will not show the same signal using identical MTP filters.

Thankfully these occurrences are not that often to make a real difference.

Friday was indeed a very good day as we all should have anticipated a bounce following the recent selloff.

Here is a good example of two (2) MTP Buy Signals that fired within a classical ascending triangle formation in ESU07.D 2 minute that yielded very good profit.

Many users seem to get stuck only looking at 3, 5, 15 minute timeframes and hence miss out on opportunities. Can't blame the software on missing this one.

Cheers, David

Matt Bowen

06-09-2007, 01:57 PM

First off, we all know the contract rollover occurred so we can all agree we are moving on to the September contracts in the E-minis.

Next, I don't know why everybody get in a fuss over roll-over on the indices. Sure, there are going to hedge funds putting on new positions in the front month to hedge their portfolios, but why is everybody getting into a fuss over the contract? I had several people call me up and say: "Oh my gosh, you need to be on the September contract". I'm like hello, do you see a liquidity problem in the June contract? People freak out over nothing... it just goes to show you nobody thinks for themselves anymore...everybody got to know what Tom, Dick and Harry are doing... I feel like saying: "Do they pay you a check every month?" Unbelievable, If people spent half the time they do finding out what other people are doing, they would probably make some great money trading. Trust me, a good trader could care less what you think of his position or what you are doing.

Look at the volume and open Interest in the Dow Futures contract on JUNE versus SEPTEMBER... it's almost exactly the same so what's the difference if I trade JUNE over SEPT??? There is no difference. Even if you were trading the June contract (which if you were looking at continuous contracts were still on June) the liquidity is still huge and the open interest has not even rolled over as you can still see the funds have not rolled their contracts.

Here's where it get's really funny...

Each of the Signals I presented in yesterday's trades were based Decision Point setups, so what is the need compare signals for? These are manual setups that you have to place the setup on the screen look at the charts below on the Dow Futures for June and September. Yes, it's true these were also TS3 trade setups and if you are NOT seeing this on your chart then you need to look at how you have the filters setup. Are we looking at the same vendor? Are we looking the the same software for that matter? If both of these answers are yes, then you need to check how the filters are setup in that software program.

Don't assume that because the filters are all the same in TradeStation and eSignal and that you are going to see identical charts on a 3 minute time frame, here's why: If you have TradeStation and eSignal side by side you will see that each one starts their bars at different times...so that means if we if program the exact same code in to each program you will see different results...this is NOT our problem because we don't write the code for TradeStation or eSignal...we only write the eSignal .efs script or the .eld easylanguage file for TradeStation...we have not control over how each of those programs builds their data bars. If you go back and dig out the Automatic setup's thread you will see several post that Steve and I did on this topic last year: http://www.mtptrader.com/showthread.php?t=801 (you'll have to weed through the 1200 or so post to find it, but it's in there).

I did not go through all of this on the Russell trade because if you look at the symbol you will see I was using the September in the Russell (most activity in the Russell is day trading speculation rather then hedging of portfolios).

tar001

06-09-2007, 03:18 PM

Thats a TS3 setup in conjunction with a DP, the TS3 is an automatic find by the software and then of course you can go to a previous pivot to manually find the DP. There are many DP setups during the day especially on the shorter time frames. That setup you show was an auto DP setup on Ninja but the R/R was 1.2(or something like that) so it would not have been a valid setup. I am not sure why everyones so defensive here, this is a tough game and we are here to learn.

First off, we all know the contract rollover occurred so we can all agree we are moving on to the September contracts in the E-minis.

Next, I don't know why everybody get in a fuss over roll-over on the indices. Sure, there are going to hedge funds putting on new positions in the front month to hedge their portfolios, but why is everybody getting into a fuss over the contract? I had several people call me up and say: "Oh my gosh, you need to be on the September contract". I'm like hello, do you see a liquidity problem in the June contract? People freak out over nothing... it just goes to show you nobody thinks for themselves anymore...everybody got to know what Tom, Dick and Harry are doing... I feel like saying: "Do they pay you a check every month?" Unbelievable, If people spent half the time they do finding out what other people are doing, they would probably make some great money trading. Trust me, a good trader could care less what you think of his position or what you are doing.

Look at the volume and open Interest in the Dow Futures contract on JUNE versus SEPTEMBER... it's almost exactly the same so what's the difference if I trade JUNE over SEPT??? There is no difference. Even if you were trading the June contract (which if you were looking at continuous contracts were still on June) the liquidity is still huge and the open interest has not even rolled over as you can still see the funds have not rolled their contracts.

Here's where it get's really funny...

Each of the Signals I presented in yesterday's trades were based Decision Point setups, so what is the need compare signals for? These are manual setups that you have to place the setup on the screen look at the charts below on the Dow Futures for June and September. Yes, it's true these were also TS3 trade setups and if you are NOT seeing this on your chart then you need to look at how you have the filters setup. Are we looking at the same vendor? Are we looking the the same software for that matter? If both of these answers are yes, then you need to check how the filters are setup in that software program.

Don't assume that because the filters are all the same in TradeStation and eSignal and that you are going to see identical charts on a 3 minute time frame, here's why: If you have TradeStation and eSignal side by side you will see that each one starts their bars at different times...so that means if we if program the exact same code in to each program you will see different results...this is NOT our problem because we don't write the code for TradeStation or eSignal...we only write the eSignal .efs script or the .eld easylanguage file for TradeStation...we have not control over how each of those programs builds their data bars. If you go back and dig out the Automatic setup's thread you will see several post that Steve and I did on this topic last year: http://www.mtptrader.com/showthread.php?t=801 (you'll have to weed through the 1200 or so post to find it, but it's in there).

I did not go through all of this on the Russell trade because if you look at the symbol you will see I was using the September in the Russell (most activity in the Russell is day trading speculation rather then hedging of portfolios).

tar001

06-09-2007, 03:20 PM

Here was that DP on NT

Thats a TS3 setup in conjunction with a DP, the TS3 is an automatic find by the software and then of course you can go to a previous pivot to manually find the DP. There are many DP setups during the day especially on the shorter time frames. That setup you show was an auto DP setup on Ninja but the R/R was 1.2(or something like that) so it would not have been a valid setup. I am not sure why everyones so defensive here, this is a tough game and we are here to learn.

tar001

06-09-2007, 03:58 PM

Since the market is closed and everything is crystal clear, here is the play on that YM trade. Using the PP that I put an arrow on gives you the DP for the day. Turn those machines back on hahaha

tar001

06-09-2007, 04:47 PM

with the filters off this is the YM trade on Ninja, as you can see the R/R was too low to take this trade as was the R/R on the NQ(with filters off) my guess is thats why with filters on they dont show up. Anywho this will be my last post on the subject, as I said MTP gave me a great week and I am not here to complain I was mainly looking at why I was not in Fridays rally but looking back I see why. That is the nice thing about trading, you always have another day(as long as you still have cash to play):eek:

tar001

06-09-2007, 04:50 PM

Strange? even with my filters off I do not show those trade setups on my 2 min ES chart?

Hi Rama,

Yep, there is definitely differences in signals with using Continuous Contract versus using Contract Month symbols. So this can be a bit confusing for some in this regard.

I had always been advised by MTP Staff to use current contract month such as YMU07.D (TradeStation) and avoid the Continuous Contract. So there is the difference regarding this particular signal firing. It would be nice if all had identical signals.

I have also found that there are distinct differences in signals generated between Data Providers. Example: E-Signal generating TS# signals where TradeStation will not show the same signal using identical MTP filters.

Thankfully these occurrences are not that often to make a real difference.

Friday was indeed a very good day as we all should have anticipated a bounce following the recent selloff.

Here is a good example of two (2) MTP Buy Signals that fired within a classical ascending triangle formation in ESU07.D 2 minute that yielded very good profit.

Many users seem to get stuck only looking at 3, 5, 15 minute timeframes and hence miss out on opportunities. Can't blame the software on missing this one.

Cheers, David

Matt Bowen

06-10-2007, 12:57 PM

Hi tar001,

On Ninja Trader is just a matter of setting the filters to "false" rather than "true"...try that and you will see the setup.

You are correct in saying that you would not have seen this, unless you are looking at it from an advanced prospective. The target from the "B" wave is not worth the risk and that is why I used the high pivot from the swing down in the morning session. Adjusting the trade is what being a discretionary trader is all about, but more importantly managing the risk. From a standard setup view, you did the right thing by not taking the trade, that is the hallmark of a professional so pat yourself on the back for following the rules :)

This is why Steve writes his daily report each day... he's teaching people and I only wish I had a free report like this when I started...it would have saved me thousands of wasted hours trying to learn how to manage trades...which besides position sizing, is the most important aspect to learn in this business.

(Note)
For those of you that are not reading Steve's free daily report, you should sign-up here:

http://www.mtpredictor.com/training/index.html

Even if you don't know anything about Elliott and Fibonacci or trading in general, it's an excellent resource for learning how a professional thinks... It's like looking over Steve's shoulder as he looks at each trade setup. Remember, it's Free...you've got nothing to lose.

All the best,

Steve Griffiths

06-11-2007, 04:34 PM

Hi Everybody,

The ER2 was the ray of light in an otherwise tricky day

A nice +4R profit......

Steve

tar001

06-11-2007, 10:04 PM

doesnt get much better than this, I wish all days were this easy. Long the ER 3 minute and then short the ER on the 15 minute(with divergence)

tar001

06-11-2007, 10:17 PM

Matt
I read his report everyday, it is very informative. I actually wait until after the market closes to read it as I like to have an open mind during market hours and sometimes I get influenced by things I read. (probably a bit of that ADD thing going on again) haha.

Hi tar001,

On Ninja Trader is just a matter of setting the filters to "false" rather than "true"...try that and you will see the setup.

You are correct in saying that you would not have seen this, unless you are looking at it from an advanced prospective. The target from the "B" wave is not worth the risk and that is why I used the high pivot from the swing down in the morning session. Adjusting the trade is what being a discretionary trader is all about, but more importantly managing the risk. From a standard setup view, you did the right thing by not taking the trade, that is the hallmark of a professional so pat yourself on the back for following the rules :)

This is why Steve writes his daily report each day... he's teaching people and I only wish I had a free report like this when I started...it would have saved me thousands of wasted hours trying to learn how to manage trades...which besides position sizing, is the most important aspect to learn in this business.

(Note)
For those of you that are not reading Steve's free daily report, you should sign-up here:

http://www.mtpredictor.com/training/index.html

Even if you don't know anything about Elliott and Fibonacci or trading in general, it's an excellent resource for learning how a professional thinks... It's like looking over Steve's shoulder as he looks at each trade setup. Remember, it's Free...you've got nothing to lose.

All the best,

Matt Bowen

06-12-2007, 09:17 AM

Hi Tar001,

I figured you had been subscribed to it :)

The only reason I wrote that is because there are a lot of people here that only read the bulletin boards, but do not sign-up for the free newsletter and they miss a lot of education and special reports like the one Steve did today:

Download this special report ------->http://www.mtpredictor.com/support/documents/IntroductiontoMTPredictor.pdf

This is an excellent white paper that really ties together the 5 different trade Automatic setups inside the MTPredictor software and it fully explains how we put them to use on a daily basis. Remember these setups automatically are found by the software, the customer does not have to scramble around the screen trying to frantically figure out anything. These setups are automatically programmed into the software and the alerts will pop-up and tell them when the setup is found...this way they are managing setups and not managing analysis.

It's just another reason for people to sign-up...not many vendors put this much effort into helping their prospects. We don't want to give them something to eat, we want to teach them how to fish so they can eat whenever they want ;)

One of my mentors (who happened to be a great teacher) told me something about money that I'll never forget, he said:

1. Be Profitable
2. Money should be used for your Dreams and Goals
3. When you look back at your life, you should be able to say that what you did was beneficial to yourself and others (it has to be good for both).

#3 was the most important because there are far too many vendors out there selling junk to people that is only helping the vendor (get rich), it's not helping the client because it does not even work and that is not good.

Again, if you are not reading Steve's free daily report, you should sign-up here:

http://www.mtpredictor.com/training/index.html

My very best to you,

Matt

radar

06-12-2007, 10:54 AM

Since the market is closed and everything is crystal clear, here is the play on that YM trade. Using the PP that I put an arrow on gives you the DP for the day. Turn those machines back on hahaha

tar001, the picture